The fairly unknown Louis Jean Pierre Vieillot or Louis Pierre Vieillot (1 Viewer)

Taphrospilus · Jun 24, 2016

Once upon a time René Primevère Lesson wrote here:

M. Vieillot, le doyen des ornithologistes, vient de mourir à Rouen.

The article was from 1831 so the whole scientific world interpreted his death year as 1831. But Lesson did not mention the exact date. The only wrong direction he gave was Rouen as death place.

Of course there a couple dedications HBW Alive key on Vieillot as is in fact Vieillot is not that unknown (as I wrote in the title) as a lot of birds are newly described by this gentleman.

So reading carefully Paul Henry Oehser on Louis Jean?? Pierre Vieillot (1748–1831) gave me an idea where to search. In there he wrote:

Originally from Yvetot, where his grandparents were postmasters, this illustrious naturalist lived with his brother at the Quatre-Mares Manor in the vicinity of Sotteville-lés-Rouen.

Therefore the place to find his death entry is Sotteville-lés-Rouen and not Rouen as claimed by Lesson.

And here p. 134 we can find the death of Louis Pierre Vieillot as 25 August 1830. It looks like no Jean like James correctly claimed in his key. Or did I miss something? There seems to be a widow (veuve) at time of death.

But I am sure Laurent will check and can clarify my statements and as well the date of birth as I feel it is douze (12) and not 10 May 1748 as often claimed in various sources.

So my personal opinion:

Louis Pierre Vieillot born 12. May 1748 in Yvetot died 25 August 1830 in Sotteville-lés-Rouen. The name contains no Jean.

l_raty · Jun 24, 2016

[...] le jour d'hier a cinq heures apres midi, au domicile de Madame veuve Vieillot, sis en cette commune au hameau de Quatremare, Louis Pierre Vieillot est décédé agé de quatre-vingt-deux ans, né à Yvetot le douze mai mil sept cent quarante-huit [...]

[...] yesterday at five after noon, at the home of Mrs. widow Vieillot, located in this municipality in the hamlet of Quatremare, Louis Pierre Vieillot died aged eighty-two, born in Yvetot on 12 May 1748 [...]

So he died on 24 August. (There is nowadays a village named Quatremare, located about 20km S of Rouen and Sotteville, but I doubt this was ever part of the municipality of Sotteville. It seems a part of Sotteville is now known as "le quartier de Quatre-Mares": more likely the hamlet was at some point included in the city, as the latter grew larger.)

He was baptised ("Louis Pierre", no "Jean" here either) on 12 May 1748 in Yvetot: [here], 25/56, lower right. His date of birth is not recorded here.

Melanie · Jun 24, 2016

The question is who was the first who added the name Jean to his name and why?

Rick Wright · Jun 25, 2016

Anybody know who owns the ms of volumes III and IV of his Hist.nat. des oiseaux de l'Amérique septentrionale? Last time they were sold, there was apparently a letter from his niece tipped in to one of them.
I've been throwing bits and pieces of Vieillotiana into a folder for several years now, and haven't got much farther than when I started.

Rick Wright · Jun 25, 2016

Melanie said:
The question is who was the first who added the name Jean to his name and why?

I don't know who first did it -- it's plain that it antedates Saunders -- but I've wondered whether it wasn't added by "attraction" from Audebert's name.

By the way, who else thinks it odd that this forgotten, neglected, and scorned ornithologist, to accept Lesson's assessments, should have been made the subject of a very fine bust?

mb1848 · Jun 25, 2016

Gustave Flaubert's Godmother was the wife of Louis Augustin Vieillot of Quatre-Mares in 1822 which explains all the ornithological allusions in his work.
http://flaubert.univ-rouen.fr/biographie/gfbap.php .

Björn Bergenholtz · Jun 25, 2016

The death year 1830 is quite a sensation! :t:

Just about everybody, everywhere; books, journals, articles, Museums [incl. (MNHN), Muséum national d'histoire naturelle, in Paris], Archives, catalogues, Libraries [incl. BHL (Biodiversity Heritage Library) and even the proud Bibliotèque national de France itself!), etc. etc. … all over the World, seem to claim 1831!

And, in most cases he´s simply "Louis Pierre Vieillot".

Taphrospilus · Jun 26, 2016

Rick Wright said:
Anybody know who owns the ms of volumes III and IV of his Hist.nat. des oiseaux de l'Amérique septentrionale? Last time they were sold, there was apparently a letter from his niece tipped in to one of them.
I've been throwing bits and pieces of Vieillotiana into a folder for several years now, and haven't got much farther than when I started.

I assume it is about Vieillotiana ipsissima (by the way not present in HBW Alive key). Where did you get the information about the existentence of such a MS? Have you contacted Smithsonian Institution about the specimen?

Björn Bergenholtz · Jun 26, 2016

Taphrospilus said:
... (by the way not present in HBW Alive key). ...

And why should it?

It´s the HBW Alive Key to Scientific Names in Ornithology, not a Latin Dictionary.

l_raty · Jun 26, 2016

Indeed, there is no such name as "Vieillotiana ipsissima" there -- these are just two words which are part of the Latin text describing Myiarchus crinitus var. irritabilis. The text starts with a list of refs, the first of which reads:

Tyrannus irritabilis, Vieillot, Ency. Meth. 1823, ii. 847, ex Suiriri pardoy-rojo, Azara, Apunt. ii. 143, No. 195. Paraguay.

Then comes a description that compares this variety to typical crinitus ("M. Myiarcho crinito ipsissimo simillimus" etc.), which itself is followed by a description of its range ("Habitat" etc.), with an annotated list of countries where specimens of the bird had been obtained. Under "Paraguay", Coues commented:

avis Azarana-Vieillotiana ipsissima!

...which means "the Azaran-Vieillotian bird itself!", indicating that this was the very bird which was originally named irritabilis by Vieillot, based on Azara's Suiriri pardo-y-rojo, in the first ref he had cited.
With "bits and pieces of Vieillotiana", Rick just meant "bits and pieces about Vieillot and his work", I believe.

Rick Wright · Jun 26, 2016

"

Calalp said:
The death year 1830 is quite a sensation! :t:

"Just about everybody, everywhere; books, journals, articles, Museums [incl. (MNHN), Muséum national d'histoire naturelle, in Paris], Archives, catalogues, Libraries [incl. BHL (Biodiversity Heritage Library) and even the proud Bibliotèque national de France itself!), etc. etc. … all over the World, seem to claim 1831!"

The date was authoritatively corrected in 1989 in the catalogue of the H. Bradley Martin sale at Sotheby's, NY, lot 226: "... Vieillot's death a year earlier than the generally accepted date of 1831." (By the way, thanks to Dan Lewis for first pointing me to that sale.)

Sometimes takes a few years -- in this case, decades -- for that sort of thing to trickle into the secondary literature.

Rick Wright · Jun 26, 2016

Taphrospilus said:
I assume it is about Vieillotiana ipsissima (by the way not present in HBW Alive key). Where did you get the information about the existentence of such a MS? Have you contacted Smithsonian Institution about the specimen?

Not entirely sure what you mean here. [Oh, never mind -- just read Laurent's response, which is correct.]

Taphrospilus · Jun 27, 2016

In fact a faux pas from me to interpret Vieillotiana as a genus on a label in SI. Sorry for this confusion (as latin is not my business). Nevertheless I still have the question on:

Rick Wright said:
The date was authoritatively corrected in 1989 in the catalogue of the H. Bradley Martin sale at Sotheby's, NY, lot 226: "... Vieillot's death a year earlier than the generally accepted date of 1831." (By the way, thanks to Dan Lewis for first pointing me to that sale.).

Was that the place where they sold the ms of volumes III and IV of his Hist.nat. des oiseaux de l'Amérique septentrionale last? I tried to find here the lot 226 in combination with year 1989 you mentioned but failed.

Björn Bergenholtz · Jun 27, 2016

Vi-ey-...?

By the way, a small side-track (for us non-French-speakers) how do you pronounce his Surname? With l's or without?

In an attempt to interpret it into English sounds, would it be; "vi-ej-awe" or "vi-ej-law"?

Or ... ?

l_raty · Jun 27, 2016

Calalp said:
By the way, a small side-track (for us non-French-speakers) how do you pronounce his Surname? With l's or without?

In an attempt to interpret it into English sounds, would it be; "vi-ej-awe" or "vi-ej-law"?

Or ... ?

No 'l'. If your computer has a speaker, you can easily listen to it on Google translate. (It's a standard French adjective, hence the pronunciation is not guessed by the program.)

Vieh-yo?

(No 'j' either in English sounds, of course.

)

Taphrospilus · Jun 27, 2016

Just to add there is another publication about his life (assume those who reseached him are aware of it):

Georges Olivier ''Un Grand ornithologiste normand, Louis-Pierre Vieillot: sa vie, son oeuvre'', [communication à l'] Académie des sciences, belles-lettres et arts de Rouen, 27 octobre 1961

Rick Wright · Jun 27, 2016

Was that the place where they sold the ms of volumes III and IV of his Hist.nat. des oiseaux de l'Amérique septentrionale last? I tried to find here the lot 226 in combination with year 1989 you mentioned but failed.

On his death and in accordance with his wishes, Vieillot's niece transmitted the ms fair copy of vols. 3 and 4, including 47 illustrations by Prêtre at various stages of production, to the comte de Riocour, for whom V had done some cataloguing work.

The ms was sold at Drouot to a foreign collector in April 1961. Whether that purchaser was Bradley Martin, or it came into his hands later, I don't know.

It was sold again at Sotheby's to another unnamed collector in 1989.

As late as 1964, some of Vieillot's specimens were still in possession of the family. Many had been sold to Boucard in 1888.

Björn Bergenholtz · Jun 28, 2016

Martin, how come you´ve amended his name on the German Wiki-page from yesterday's "Louis (Jean) Pierre Vieillot" to "Louis Jean Pierre Vieillot" ... ?

Have you found any proof Jean did was one of of his names?!

Or why did you drop the brackets?

Björn

PS. And, Laurent, Thanks! Then "vijejå" it will be! (in Swedish that is)

--

l_raty · Jun 28, 2016

Calalp said:
Martin, how come you´ve amended his name on the German Wiki-page from yesterday's "Louis (Jean) Pierre Vieillot" to "Louis Jean Pierre Vieillot" ... ?

Martin didn't do it, and it is based on no additional evidence.
See the page history: https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Louis_Jean_Pierre_Vieillot&action=history
The change back was by a user named "MBq", with comment "MBq verschob die Seite Louis Pierre Vieillot nach Louis Jean Pierre Vieillot: gesamte literatur nennt ihn so, auch en.wp und fr.wp".
The joys of WP...

Taphrospilus · Jun 28, 2016

Tried to convince them here to revert but there are a lot of users believing more in other Wikis and old literature than babtism entries etc.

The fairly unknown Louis Jean Pierre Vieillot or Louis Pierre Vieillot (1 Viewer)

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