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Magnification vs. Exit Pupil (1 Viewer)

I'm like you Bob in that the aesthetic view is important to me. I'm one of those 30ish x, fixed EP guys on an 80mm scope, for that reason. I like a pretty, bright, color rich picture to look at.

The OP asked about mag v exit pupil, presumably wondering which will help deliver a better resolved image. That, to an extent, is a different issue than what you and I are about. Resolution can be more objectively quantified than aesthetics.
 
The timing of this thread is very good. I have recently purchased a high quality 8x56 binocular that I was comparing to two of my 8x42s and a 7x42. I spent a good deal of time the other night looking from bin to bin trying to determine if there was any significant advantage in low light performance between the bins.

What I found somewhat surprised me.

I placed all of the bins on a solid rest, side by side, all pointing at the same object. I then went back and forth between them repeatedly over a 45 minutes period during dusk. The large 56 mm binocular provided a more well-illuminated image across the entire image. One of the 8x42s was the dimmest with the other 8x42 and the 7x42 seemingly producing about the same amount of illumination across the entire image.

Some of that is a bit surprising but some of it isn't.

The interesting part is that I did not see a significant advantage in using one over the other. I could see the same object in all four bins. I could identify the shape and overall configuration of the object (the edges if you will). One difference I could see though is that the dimmest 8x42 and the 7x42 actually produced more easily defined "edges" of the object.

My "guess" on this one is that it was the result of the differing type of contrast in those two bins along with the fact that both utilize ED/FL glass. Thoughts on that would be appreciated.

At no time did I feel as if the 8x56 gave me any significantly improved low light performance over any of the other bins but most notably not over the 7x42.

Having said that, the 20x80 scope was pulling in more details long after all the bins quit.

;)
 
"Having said that, the 20x80 scope was pulling in more details long after all the bins quit."

Frank I find that very interesting and something I have noticed myself. Once again thanks.

Regards,Steve
 
Having said that, the 20x80 scope was pulling in more details long after all the bins quit.

;)

I also agree. If the goal is maximum detail in low light one must go beyond handheld binoculars and turn to scopes.

For kicks, last night at twilight I mounted my William Optics ZenithStar 70mm ED, a refractor scope that I use mostly for astronomy. This is not my best scope for viewing nature. My best scope for viewing nature is a Kowa 661 (66mm, nonED). I mounted the ZenithStar because I have more eyepiece options than with the Kowa. And I sometimes take my ZenithStar on nature viewing because I have a neat backpack from Williams Optics that the scope and accessories fit into.

I inserted a Pentax XW 40mm eyepiece in the ZenithStar and returned to the oak tree. This configuaration delivered the following specs:

40 mm / 11x70 / 6.6mm exit pupil / 6.5° FOV

Whoa! Who turned on the light?

Now, to be true to the spirit of this thread, I ran through the Pentax XW series.

40 mm / 11x70 / 6.6mm exit pupil / 6.5° FOV
30mm / 14x70 / 4.9mm exit pupil / 4.9° FOV
20mm / 22x70 / 3.3mm exit pupil / 3.3° FOV
14mm / 31x70 / 2.3mm exit pupil / 2.3° FOV
10mm / 43x70 / 1.6mm exit pupil / 1.6° FOV
7mm / 61x70 / 1.1mm exit pupil / 1.1° FOV
5mm / 86x70 / 0.8mm exit pupil / 0.8° FOV
3.5mm / 123x70 / 0.6mm exit pupil / 0.6° FOV
1.4mm / 307x70 / 0.2mm exit pupil / 0.2° FOV (Televue Powermate 2.5x on 3.5mm eyepiece)

The 40mm (11x) was definitely the brightest. But as I worked down the list, I saw more detail due to increased magnification, until I ran out of light (acceptable exit pupil) somewhere between the 14mm (31x) and 10mm (43x).

Which eyepiece gave me the most detail at twilight with enough light to study the detail? Probably the 20mm (22x). The 14mm (30x), possibly, but the detail was very dark.

Which eyepiece gave me the most aesthetically pleasing view of the oak tree at twilight? The 40mm (11x) delivered the most color. (Color seems to be the first to go as the light fades.) But the FOV of the 40mm was too wide. So on this evening, I give the aesthetic prize to the 30mm (14x) because it had the best balance of light and FOV.

Lest you think I have abandoned my binoculars--the Nikon SE 12x50 beat out the scope/eyepiece (14x70) in aesthetics at twilight. You get roughly a 25% increase in perceived magnification when you view with binoculars compared to the one-eye view of scopes. That puts the Nikon SE perceived configuration at 15x50 in scope specs.

. . .

For those of you who are interested, during full daylight I get acceptable views with the ZenithStar scope and Pentax XW eyepieces from 40mm (11x) through the 10mm (43x). However, I sometimes view with the 7mm (61x) and 5mm (86x), but I get dark views. The 5mm (86x) is the absolute limit for this 70mm scope. Since I can pack 3 eyepieces in my Williams Optics backpack, I usually take the 20mm (22x) for aesthetics, and the 10mm (43x) for best all-around view, and the 5mm (86x) for maximum magnification. At night, when viewing the Moon, planets, and double stars, I pack other eyepiece sizes. As I said earlier, the nature views through this scope are not as nice as those with my Kowa 661. I have 20x and 30x wide-angle eyepieces for the Kowa. I do not use zoom eyepieces on any of my scopes. I have tried them, but I just do not like them. Like Kevin, I am a fixed eyepiece man.

. . .

My recommendation for viewing the most detail in animals under low light, as others have stated above, is to switch from binoculars to a spotting scope or astronomy scope--the biggest aperture in a top quality scope and eyepieces that you can afford and carry about in the wild. Plus, get several eyepieces because the views definitely change as the light changes.

...Bob
Kentucky
 
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Great post, Bob. What I find interesting is that the exit pupil at highest detail was 3.3. This echos my experience with spotting scope usage in terms of magnification trade off, though I observe purely for aesthetic, as has been differentiated in this thread, and don't mind turning it down to get a better view.

But one question - if you were looking for the ten-pointer, which setting would you use to locate the animal?
 
Bob,
Are you saying the scope revealed more detail than the 7x50 Bins? Does the scope with the 30mm EP, which yields the closest mag, pupil, etc. to the Big Fujis, show more than the 7x50s?

Not trying to bust your chops here (honestly), but how do you explain this paradox?

BTW, your scope and EP report is completely consistent with what I've seen.
 
Bob,

Thank you for taking the time to do the scope/eyepiece comparisons. Your findings are very interesting. A bell shaped curve maybe?

If that is the case then I wonder what we could specifically take from the results. Is there a specific exit pupil size that corresponds with our own pupil size and thus would produce the best results in terms of magnification and "illumination"?
 
The timing is indeed good! I went out this morning for a archery elk hunt and the hunter had, low and behold, Fujinon 7x50's!!! Now I'm not sure what model they were... Probably not the much heralded 7x50 FMTR-SX although it looks like it to me? Anyway my results were strikingly different than Bobs! Not only did the 10x42 SE completely dominate it in the low light it was also able to give better color rendition, contrast, and to me a better FOV. Although the Fuji may have indeed have a better FOV its inferior design led it to give a tunnel feel while viewing where as the SE has a very open view with almost zero barreling affect.
Now we were out at 345 am with only the moon light out and with the heavy forest most light could not penetrate.... The Nikon was still able to resolve in most areas of the forest. Enough to look into stands of trees from across large cuts and pick out game where as the Fujinon was dead! The Fuji could at close, very close ranges (under 50 yards) resolve but failed completely when distance was added! While the SE was working from the start the Fuji finally started to resolve at almost 6am! It took some of the sun to get them going! This is nothing new to me and it is, as I have said time and again, something that happens every year in camp.... The hunter comes up with his low light 7x or 8x in ANY configuration and they just fail when trying to compete with the Alpha 10's
And one last thing, I'm not trying to rub this in anyone nose I just want the OP to have the correct info before they go out to look for a specialty bin...
 

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CL you must of used the camera in your phone, that doesn't look like a 7x50 FMT-SX to me from what little I can tell from this picture.
 
Interesting CL. I am going to do a similar comparison between the 8x56 and 10x50 some time in the next week. Based on your findings the 10x50 should outperform the 8x56. It should prove an interesting comparison.
 
CL you must of used the camera in your phone, that doesn't look like a 7x50 FMT-SX to me from what little I can tell from this picture.
I did :-O Its all I had :t:
As I said I'm not sure what model it is because it didn't say on it and the hunter couldn't tell me? I looked on the Fujinon web sight and they do look like the FMT-SX from the web photo but that doesn't mean much.... I did ask for the age and he said that he bought them 8 years ago and has been using them sense. This would at the very least put it as a newer bin than the SE and from a company that does sell top shelf Porros....
Interesting CL. I am going to do a similar comparison between the 8x56 and 10x50 some time in the next week. Based on your findings the 10x50 should outperform the 8x56. It should prove an interesting comparison.
Assuming the 10x's are of a high quality there won't be much of a comparison! Especially if you start adding object to the 10x!
 
Great post, Bob. What I find interesting is that the exit pupil at highest detail was 3.3. This echos my experience with spotting scope usage in terms of magnification trade off, though I observe purely for aesthetic, as has been differentiated in this thread, and don't mind turning it down to get a better view.

But one question - if you were looking for the ten-pointer, which setting would you use to locate the animal?

Matt...

I just wrote a five-paragraph answer. I moved them to the bottom of this post because I went back outside with my Fujinon FMT-SX 7x50 and Pentax DCF ED 10x50 binocualars.

8:30 p.m.
Two deer are foraging under my neighbor's apple tree. The Fujinon 7x50 reveals the outline of the deer quite well, as well as the surrounding grass and orchard. I put the Pentax 10x50 to my eyes and the shape of the deer, as well as the surrounding grass and orchard are darker. Detecting the shape of things is more difficult in the darker view of the 10x50. However, I do see more detail in the deer with the 10x50. The deer begin to switch a warning sign with their white tail and move away between some houses out of my eyesight. I sit and reflect a few minutes.

I pick up the 7x50 again and the lawn is brighter than with my naked eye. I pass over a clump in my neighbor's yard. A clump that has not been there before. I cannot make out the detail in the clump, just the shape. I pick up the 10x50 and see that ears reveal the clump to be a rabbit foraging in the lawn. The rabbit takes a couple of hops. I go back to the 7x50. As the clump moves across the lawn in slow hops I can now detect it to be a rabbit--more from the hops than anything else. Back to the 10x50, much more detail in the rabbit, however, the shape of the rabbit and the surrounding lawn is darker than with the 7x50.

Bottom line, the 7x50 reveals a much more aesthetic view, which I prefer, because of the brighter surrounding and wider FOV. However, it is the 10x50 that first revealed the clump to be more than a clump--a rabbit eating my neighbor's clover.

I am reminded of your full moon resolution test. You reported the larger exit pupil revealed a brighter chart, but no more detail than the smaller exit pupil.

I also think about the 7x50's original marine purpose--to reveal shore line and rocks for ships nearing land. These are surroundings and shapes. What is important to mariners is the coast line and if any outlying rocks or piers may present danger--they are not interested in the surface texture details of the rocks or the piers. For detail, such as the identification of another ship, mariners often switch to the larger 16x70--they are no longer interested in surroundings and shapes, they want details.

Although animal details are revealed more through magnification, I find that I personally prefer the aesthetics of the larger exit pupil and smaller magnification--the animals in their environment.

. . .

Now, back to your question about which eyepiece would I use if looking for a ten-point buck.

First, let me say the ZenithStar scope would not make a very good hunting scope because the scope exterior is white with bright shiny knobs.

Next, I think the selection of hunting optics depends greatly upon the terrain or environment. Specifically, are you going to be in close terrain or open terrain? Here in Kentucky, particularly the central and eastern portions of the state, the hunting will most likely take place in hilly forest terrain. Spotting deer is not a challenge of distance viewing, but detecting their movement among the brush, trees, and ravines. What's more, the deer is not visible on the move except for a few seconds at best. A scope of any specs would be more of a hinderance than a help. A good pair of hunting binoculars would be of greater value. Paricularly, those with coatings to accent red or brown colors (the color of animal fur), such as the Steiner Predator or Minox models.

Now this changes if you are hunting on cleared farm land, where deer emerge from the forest to forage pasture land, crops, or cattle feed. In such open spaces--which probably are not consedered open spaces at all in the western United States--the deer can be viewed from greater distances and for longer periods of time as they move in and out of the forest across the grassland.

In close forest terrain I think a binocular with narrow depth of view, wide field of view, and quick focus would be the thing more than higher magnification or a bright exit pupil. But, since we are talking magnification and exit pupil in this thread, more than other features, I will have to say a 7x or 8x would be adequate for close forest terrain with a 4-5mm exit pupil for day and 5-6mm exit pupil for dawn, dusk, or heavy forest canopy.

At twilight, if I found that I had lost my 7x50 or 8x42 binocular, and discovered that I had packed some Camouflage netting in my backpack, and heard a rustling up the ravine 50-100 yards ahead--I would ever so quietly (with praying mantis slowness) drape the Camouflage over the ZenithStar 70mm scope, and select the 40 mm eyepiece (11x70 / 6.6mm exit pupil / 6.5° FOV) because of the bright exit pupil and wide FOV. If I saw for sure it was a large deer making its way down the ravine, I would switch to the 20mm (22x / 3.3mm exit pupil / 3.3° FOV) to count the points. Maybe I will make too much noise or my movements are detected by the wary buck and he is spooked and veers out of sight.

But then, I am not a hunter with a tag in my pocket, with both an empty wall and empty freezer to fill. A hunter would probably use binoculars to detect the deer moving down the ravine and the 20mm eyepiece would already be in the scope because the hunter would have predetermined the spot where a deer would come down the ravine.

...Bob
Kentucky
 
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CL...

The Fujinon in your photo is NOT the Fujinon FMT-SX (Polaris series), but the standard (read "inferior") Nautilus series.

Do you also have some land to sell?

...Bob
Kentucky
 
Bob, as others have said, I can't tell you what you do or don't see, but for anyone reading this thread and supposing that this is entirely an open/subjective issue, please know that the question of whether a bit more mag versus a bit more exit pupil is generally more useful for seeing details (whether daylight, sun-lit planets at night, or dimly lit terrestrial objects) was settled a long time ago by users of telescopes and large binos, and it has been my experience that the conventional wisdom on this (that magnification trumps brightness because it is generally more useful to engage more of the retina than to provide more light to a given area of the retina) is correct. When I'm doing a big day and trying to make IDs of nearby shorebirds (that in daylight would be easily identified with 7x) at dusk and beyond, my 7x42 or 8.5x42 binos give out well before my 30x78 scope has lost its usefulness. Having a stable image is critical for these comparisons.

--AP

Alexis and others...

I think all of us are reading our own perspectives into the OP's question. The question did not mention details or aesthetics, but the word "better." For some observers, "better" means details for identification, while for others it means the aesthetics of the animals in their surroundings. If the OP returns and defines what he/she meant by "better," then we can debate more objectively.

However, I fear the OP has left the building.

...Bob
Kentucky
 
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Bob,

Thank you for taking the time to do the scope/eyepiece comparisons. Your findings are very interesting. A bell shaped curve maybe?

If that is the case then I wonder what we could specifically take from the results. Is there a specific exit pupil size that corresponds with our own pupil size and thus would produce the best results in terms of magnification and "illumination"?

Frank...

I am sure you are well aware of this rule of thumb--the peak eyepiece for any scope is the eyepiece that returns close to a 2.0mm exit pupil.

Another rule of thumb is the best eyepiece for any scope is the eyepiece that provides the most detail while filling the FOV.

However, I think the above rules are speaking of fully lighted objects, not objects in low light. I have never run across a similar rule of thumb for low light--perhaps it might be a 3.0mm or greater exit pupil for scopes in low light nature viewing. For binoculars--that is what we are debating (I think?).

. . .

And yes, I think we carry around in our head what makes our "best" view and we know it when we see it. I have tried to quantify my "best" view in my personal notebooks as far as my words allow. All I can say with any certainty is my "best" view is, as I stated earlier, a balance of light, life (object), and environment (surrounding). For me, the light comes from exit pupil size of 5-7mm, the life (object) comes from sufficient detail to permit the object to be itself in the eyecups, and no more detail because too much detail complicates everything, and the environment (surrounding) comes from an FOV that allocates no more than 1/3 to the object itself.

...Bob
Kentucky
 
I might take the bins out to the park tonight to get a long range view. This topic is just fascinating enough, although I risk beating a dead horse. One thing, as an amateur astronomer (designed and built a 10" truss Dobsonian for my "fabulous" Southern Cali skies), I have a question. Are space objects really fully lighted? Planets are one thing, but how about a faint nebula? A lot of my experience finding these objects in a little 8x50 finder scope (now Telrad) points to lower magnification = higher contrast = easier to find. Some objects are found by reference stars but I can also hunt down things like the Andromeda Galaxy or Double Cluster via the little finder. Maybe it's in the relative size of the object in the finder. But here, we're not talking about a buck 500m down range but a little deep space object a few light years away.

Is there a parallel here? Would be interesting to compare/contrast. Is it just the size of the object?



And yes, I reckon the OP has left the building, but he also posted on 24hourcampfire and the responses there are worth a look.

Matt
 
Bob,
Are you saying the scope revealed more detail than the 7x50 Bins? Does the scope with the 30mm EP, which yields the closest mag, pupil, etc. to the Big Fujis, show more than the 7x50s?

Not trying to bust your chops here (honestly), but how do you explain this paradox?

BTW, your scope and EP report is completely consistent with what I've seen.

Kevin...

Let me begin by saying at twilight (sunset to darkness), the light changes dramatically very quickly. Surveyor in a previous post quantified this change for us.

Second, I think there is a best aesthetic view and a best details view, although I am still unsure what we all mean when we say "details." I do not think the two views are the same view. They might be, but usually not as I have tried to define them.

In the first evening, the 7x50 began to overtake the 12x50 at 8:30 p.m. and for certain by 9:00 p.m. The 7x50 and 16x70 comparisons were taken at 9:30 p.m. and 10:00 p.m. (as best as I can recall).

The ZenithStar scope comparisons were done between 8:00 p.m. and 8:30 p.m. on the following evening.

I have usually found in previous comparisons at twilight and the night sky that the Fujinon FMT-SX 16x70 presents brightness views similar to the Nikon SE 12x50, although the quality of the view always goes to the SE 12x50 for color, contrast, and resolution, unless I am specifically looking for details. Then the prize usually goes to the Fujinon 16x70.

Therefore, I deduct that a comparison between the Fujinon FMT-SX 7x50 and 16x70 at 8:00 p.m would definitely give the prize to the 16x70. At 8:30 p.m. they would be neck and neck--the aesthetics of the 7x50 versus the details of the 16x70.

. . .

Thanks for your honest and frank comments. I appreciate them greatly. I have tried to incorporate them in my latest twilight comparison--the one this evening with the two deer and the rabbit.

...Bob
Kentucky
 
Bob, thanks for sharing all these excellent, and no doubt fun, observations.

Bob has said that his eyes that will open up to 6mm+, I think 6.5mm, right Bob? So, in very low light, the surface brightness seen in the 7x50 will be greater than that shown by the 16x70 by the square of the ratio of the effective exit pupil diameters, or 2.2 times brighter in the 7x50. That is really noticeable! When it gets so dark that it's just flat hard to see, "resolution" is not the game, seeing something is. Under such conditions the view is lousy at best. But that would be, in the 7x50. Bob, you said this exactly right early in this thread. My comparisons concur. It's just a matter of how dark it has to get, and how much of the 7x50's light output your eyes can accept, before the "night glass" wins.
Ron
 
And yes, I reckon the OP has left the building, but he also posted on 24hourcampfire and the responses there are worth a look.

Matt

Hey, CL--oh, buddy--did you read the replies over at 24hourcampfire? Don't they have a lot of "hunters" over there. I mean, what do you think about those replies?

:D
 
I might take the bins out to the park tonight to get a long range view. This topic is just fascinating enough, although I risk beating a dead horse. One thing, as an amateur astronomer (designed and built a 10" truss Dobsonian for my "fabulous" Southern Cali skies), I have a question. Are space objects really fully lighted? Planets are one thing, but how about a faint nebula? A lot of my experience finding these objects in a little 8x50 finder scope (now Telrad) points to lower magnification = higher contrast = easier to find. Some objects are found by reference stars but I can also hunt down things like the Andromeda Galaxy or Double Cluster via the little finder. Maybe it's in the relative size of the object in the finder. But here, we're not talking about a buck 500m down range but a little deep space object a few light years away.

Is there a parallel here? Would be interesting to compare/contrast. Is it just the size of the object?


Matt

Matt...

Now I will get serious.

I think you raise a good point--where exactly the light falls in the light sprectrum. In my skies, merely a 5.1 naked eye limiting magnitude, and not near what you have in southern California, I definitely need filters to see nebulae in the night sky, specifically an Ultra High Contrast narrowband filter for emission or diffusion nebulae and an Oxygen-III line filter for planetary nebulae and supernova remnants.

Back on earth, during low light terrestrial views, do our eyes see certain light waves (i.e., colors not brightness or intensity) better under low light than others? Are the rods in the eyes of certain people (or is it the cones that see color) more inclined toward certain colors? Are there degrees of color blindness among all of us? Does magnification help make up for inequities of color seeing?

Hey, Surveyor, if you are out there, now is the time to come back into this thread and give us the results of some of your light tests?

...Bob
Kentucky
 
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