Advice on scopes (1 Viewer)

joannec · Nov 23, 2005

I need some advice on scopes. What are the features to look for on a beginners scope? I know nothing about scopes. I don't want to spend hundreds of pounds on something wonderful, just something fairly basic. My husband likes gadgets and sort of likes bird watching. I am hoping he'll come with me birdwatching more if he has more to do. I am happy with my bins and camera and thought a scope might be a good Christmas present for him. Thanks.
Joanne

John P · Nov 23, 2005

Purely from my point of view I would think that your husband needs to be a bit more enthusiatic than "sort of likes birdwatching" before you invest in a scope for him, a really good one is a sizeable investment, a cheap one might always leave you wondering - "what if ?"

Are you anywhere near Pulborough Brooks? They have a well stocked shop on site where you could look at several options from across the price range.

http://www.rspb.org.uk/reserves/guide/p/pulboroughbrooks/index.asp

RAH · Nov 23, 2005

I had good luck with a Nikon Sky and Earth 15-45x60 scope as a beginner scope ( http://www.nikonsportoptics.com/product.php?group=15&subgroup=153&product=7351 ). You can get one for about $230 with a zoom eyepiece. I recommend an ANGLED scope, which is what I have, but it seems that the straight body is much easier to find.

It is not true that you need to spend big bucks for a starter scope. I used the Sky and Earth for 2 years and had good luck with it. I just upgraded to a Pentax PF-65EDA, which you might also consider, if you want to spend more money. It is a great bargain - about $650 with zoom eyepiece. ( http://www.pentax.co.jp/english/products/sougan/scope/pf-65eda/ )

Don't forget, you MUST buy a tripod for use with these. Nikon sells a kit that includes the Sky and Earth plus a tripod, which might be a good deal.

pduxon · Nov 23, 2005

joannechattaway said:
I need some advice on scopes. What are the features to look for on a beginners scope? I know nothing about scopes. I don't want to spend hundreds of pounds on something wonderful, just something fairly basic. My husband likes gadgets and sort of likes bird watching. I am hoping he'll come with me birdwatching more if he has more to do. I am happy with my bins and camera and thought a scope might be a good Christmas present for him. Thanks.
Joanne

tend to agree with John P.

you may want to go along to a field day. curiously Kay Optical have one at Pagham on Nov 27th will give you a chance to have a look and see what you think....
http://www.kayoptical.co.uk/field.htm

or as John says go to Pulborough

at that least that way you'll know first hand whats available and what they cost! Anything from £200 to £1500 eek!

joannec · Nov 24, 2005

Thanks, I will go to Pulborough Brooks and try them out; it isn't too far from me. I understand about the tripod and the angled eyepiece. Do people agree that 15-45x 60 is about right? And what are the advantages and disadvantages of a zoom? Are they easyto operate?

postcardcv · Nov 24, 2005

joannechattaway said:
And what are the advantages and disadvantages of a zoom? Are they easyto operate?

Yes zooms are very easy to operate. The advantage to a zoom is the ability to get higher magnifications without changing your eyepeice. The disadvantage is that you will get a narrower field of view than with a fixed eyepiece.

JCraig · Nov 27, 2005

joannechattaway said:
Thanks, I will go to Pulborough Brooks and try them out; it isn't too far from me. I understand about the tripod and the angled eyepiece. Do people agree that 15-45x 60 is about right? And what are the advantages and disadvantages of a zoom? Are they easyto operate?

With reference to the advantages and disadvantages of a zoom eyepiece. One big disadvantage of the zoom eyepiece that I found is they are not very good in low light. I brought my first scope this year a Nikon Fieldscope III, I found that with the 60mm front lens the zoom eyepiece took too much light out. I was lucky and managed to find some unused secondhand fixed eyepieces.

postcardcv · Nov 27, 2005

JCraig said:
With reference to the advantages and disadvantages of a zoom eyepiece. One big disadvantage of the zoom eyepiece that I found is they are not very good in low light. I brought my first scope this year a Nikon Fieldscope III, I found that with the 60mm front lens the zoom eyepiece took too much light out. I was lucky and managed to find some unused secondhand fixed eyepieces.

The Nikon's are well known for being one of the worst zoom eyepeices (though their fixed ones are excellent). On the other top end scopes (Leica, Swarovski and Zeiss) the zoom all perform well even in low light.

RAH · Nov 28, 2005

Regardless, I believe that a beginner would be happier with a zoom than with a fixed. Plus, most beginner scopes come with zoom eyepieces anyway, I think.

Tannin · Nov 28, 2005

My take on this is that a cheap scope is unlikely to be something he will use much. It will probably get taken out a few times, and then gather dust for years after that. Either get him a good scope (Zeiss, Leica, Swarovski, or similar) or else let the idea go. People tend to react very strongly to a quality scope, and fall in love with the view. But with cheaper scopes, you have to be pretty strongly motivated to persist with using one.

Colin Key · Nov 28, 2005

joannechattaway said:
I need some advice on scopes. What are the features to look for on a beginners scope? I know nothing about scopes. I don't want to spend hundreds of pounds on something wonderful, just something fairly basic. My husband likes gadgets and sort of likes bird watching. I am hoping he'll come with me birdwatching more if he has more to do. I am happy with my bins and camera and thought a scope might be a good Christmas present for him. Thanks.
Joanne

Joanne,

You don't say whether or not your husband already has a binocular. If not, he will get into birding much more quickly with a reasonable set of "bins" rather than a cheap telescope. I agree with Tannin that a cheap 'scope is more likely to put him off and will not get much use thereafter.

Colin

RAH · Nov 28, 2005

Tannin said:
My take on this is that a cheap scope is unlikely to be something he will use much. It will probably get taken out a few times, and then gather dust for years after that. Either get him a good scope (Zeiss, Leica, Swarovski, or similar) or else let the idea go.

Gee, I guess I couldn't disagree more. I used a cheap scope for over 2 years, it never gathered dust, and it helped me to decide that I really liked birding and that it was then worth spending bigger bucks for a better scope.

So, it's either the top-of-the-line, very expensive "prestige" brands or NOTHING??

iporali · Nov 28, 2005

RAH said:
Gee, I guess I couldn't disagree more.

I'm with RAH - except maybe about zoom eyepieces

. There are many compact & reasonably priced scopes, which show you or your husband much more than the best "Europosh" binoculars. Opticron Mighty Midget, Kowa TS-501, TSN-601 + a good 20/25x eyepiece come to my mind.

There you go - ask 10 people and get 10 different advices :t:

Ilkka

Yelvertoft · Nov 28, 2005

iporali said:
I'm with RAH - except maybe about zoom eyepieces . There are many compact & reasonably priced scopes, which show you or your husband much more than the best "Europosh" binoculars. Opticron Mighty Midget, Kowa TS-501, TSN-601 + a good 20/25x eyepiece come to my mind.

There you go - ask 10 people and get 10 different advices :t:

Ilkka

I'm with Illka!
A respected brand such as Nikon, Opticron or Kowa with a fixed eyepiece is fine. Kowa seems particularly "unfashionable" at the moment but they really are good scopes for the money. I've tried zoom eyepieces but prefer a fixed for the wider angle of view it gives. If you've never used a scope before then it can take a bit of practice getting the scope pointing at the target, a wide angle eyepiece helps tremendously in this respect.

As suggested earlier, go to an optics field day and see for yourself, it's undoubtedly the best way to find out.

Duncan.

P.S. I note that you've posted this in the "Digiscoping" section, but you don't mention digiscoping in the original post. Is digiscoping high up on the list of wants?

Colin Key · Nov 28, 2005

RAH said:
Gee, I guess I couldn't disagree more. I used a cheap scope for over 2 years, it never gathered dust, and it helped me to decide that I really liked birding and that it was then worth spending bigger bucks for a better scope.

So, it's either the top-of-the-line, very expensive "prestige" brands or NOTHING??

There is a lot of ground between "top of the range" and "NOTHING" and Joanne would be best suited to a second-hand "mid-range" 'scope if she is unsure and on a limited budget. My point was that if her husband does not possess bins then that would be a better investment then going for a "cheap" 'scope. Cheap scopes (and there is a whole load of eastern European rubbish out there) are total CRAPP, and anyone who says otherwise is of limited intelligence (and certainly zero experience). I seriously cannot imagine anyone suggesting buying a cheap scope rather than a reasonable binocular in order to fuel someone's interest in birds. £250 buys good bins but you need to spend at least £500 for a reasonable (second-hand) scope.

postcardcv · Nov 28, 2005

Colin Key said:
I seriously cannot imagine anyone suggesting buying a cheap scope rather than a reasonable binocular in order to fuel someone's interest in birds. £250 buys good bins but you need to spend at least £500 for a reasonable (second-hand) scope.

I totally agree that good bins are a better idea than a scope, you should certainly get a good deal more use out of bins than a scope.

However I'd have to disagree that you need to spend £500 to buy a reasonable secondhand scope - there are pleanty of good deals out there for much less. You can easily pick up an older Kowa (TSN1/2/3/4) or a Nikon fieldscope II ED for £200-300.

You can buy a good new non-ED scope for under £500 - the Kowa 601/2 plus fixed eyepeice would be about £400 and is excellent value for money.

dbradnum · Nov 28, 2005

I agree with the principle (don't pay rock-bottom prices), because there are indeed a lot of very poor scopes out there, but the £500 threshold is way too high.

If you just take 5 mins on Ebay, you can find:

a couple of kowa 820 series
Kowa TSN4 apparently in good nick
Opticron HR66 + 28x HDF lens + stay on case
Optolyth TBS 80 + stay on case + Manfrotto

all of which will sell for considerably less than £500, will provide a fantastic image and should last a beginner birder a long time. Plenty of optics retailers around the UK will have similar stock - phone and chat through your requirements.

As Ilkka said, some of the new small scopes are excellent - a Mighty Midget with case and monopod for about £200 is good value, as are the small Kowas.

Yelvertoft · Nov 28, 2005

Colin Key said:
There is a lot of ground between "top of the range" and "NOTHING" and Joanne would be best suited to a second-hand "mid-range" 'scope if she is unsure and on a limited budget. My point was that if her husband does not possess bins then that would be a better investment then going for a "cheap" 'scope. Cheap scopes (and there is a whole load of eastern European rubbish out there) are total CRAPP, and anyone who says otherwise is of limited intelligence (and certainly zero experience). I seriously cannot imagine anyone suggesting buying a cheap scope rather than a reasonable binocular in order to fuel someone's interest in birds. £250 buys good bins but you need to spend at least £500 for a reasonable (second-hand) scope.

Like others, I'd agree that for a beginning birder, a pair of bins should take priority over a scope. Like others, I'd disagree that you need to spend £500+ for a decent 2nd hand scope. My used Kowa 663 with 30xW cost me £349. I've compared it side by side with Europosh scopes on field days at my local reserve and come away very pleased that I didn't spend silly money on Leica/Swaro/Zeiss.

Clearly I am of limited intelligence and have zero experience. I apologise for expressing my opinion, I apologise for having one, I am not worthy.

delia todd · Nov 28, 2005

I'm also with the 'decent bins first' school Joanne, he'll get far more use and pleasure from them than from a scope in the early days.

The time to purchase a scope is when you really know what sort of birding you both want to do. Estuary/sea watching or digi-scoping for example. If it's country walks and woodlands a scope can be a bit of a handicap.

D

dbradnum · Nov 29, 2005

Colin,

You may possibly be right that there is a danger of wasting money here; everyone seems to agree that a really cheap scope is a bad move. However, labelling advocates of cheaper scopes as ignorant and so on isn't likely to fuel constructive debate. The £500 threshold you suggest is just as misleading to a beginner as a recommendation to buy bargain-basement optics.

Joanne:

it would probably help if you could tell us two more bits of information:
- what sort of binoculars (if any) does your husband have at the moment?
- approximately what is your budget for the gift?

Then we should be able to make some recommendations for binoculars or scope as appropriate.

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