Are our fellow European birders better than UK birders. (1 Viewer)

[MKinHK]

Wht makes the top birdrs so good? I think birders who are ringers have an advantage in learning the fine details of ID - cartainly for groups such as phylloscs and accros.

As for picking out a distant dot and identifying it without bins or scopes that is an old guides' trick - you just need to know of a reliable bird in a regular location and call it - to the amazement of your clients. Works every time (almost!)
Cheers
Mike

 

[rokermartin]

Wht makes the top birdrs so good? I think birders who are ringers have an advantage in learning the fine details of ID - cartainly for groups such as phylloscs and accros.

As for picking out a distant dot and identifying it without bins or scopes that is an old guides' trick - you just need to know of a reliable bird in a regular location and call it - to the amazement of your clients. Works every time (almost!)
Cheers
Mike

I agree with you that birders who are ringers have a advantage in learning fine details of id in different bird groups.Been to a few bird obs over the years and the wardens are usually excellent in their bird id skills and knowledge.

 

[markgrubb]

It would be good if birders would use it less and go back to basics.For eg when they hear a Great Tit or Willow Warbler they should try and remember its call for themselfs instead of using tapes to id bird calls.I am not saying this technology is a bad thing that we have now but i think birders rely on it alot these days.Bird Dvds and bird call tapes are certainly useful to refer back to if a birder is't sure of a bird id or a bird song.

I don't agree with that, Rokermartin. I am a relatively inexperienced birder of 3-4 years. The single thing that has helped me advance my skills most is learning bird song and calls from CD's. Otherwise I would have found it much harder to find birds on my own such as redstarts,crested tit etc. For me there is something much more certain about song/calls and their form as against the greater variables involved in seeing a bird. And I reckon call is the initial thing that attracts my attention to a lot of birds. From there I can get onto the bird and have a good look. Would I develop into a better birder by knowing nothing of calls and learning in the field then trying to remember and reference the call when I got home?-it would be a slow process and I don't think the answer is yes. Learning from CD's/DVD's has helped me advance more quickly-sure I make lots of errors but without that sort of help I think I would have been left clueless in the field on many more occasions

 

[Sancho]

Learning from CD's/DVD's has helped me advance more quickly

I agree, Mark, me too....my Re-Education over the last ten years has been greatly facilitated by the proliferation of CDs and DVDs available. It would have taken me decades to re-learn a lot of the simple stuff if I'd had to do everything from first principles.

 

[rokermartin]

I agree what you guys are saying about the bird tapes and dvds i think they are very useful for bird id and bird song.I have a few myself they are good for referring back to.But i think birders should 'nt depend on them to much.They should be able to try and learn the bird songs themselfs by listerning to the birds everytime they are out.That is how the older generation of birders learnt.I know it might seem difficult at first but it is only a matter of practice and in time you will get to know each bird song that is what fieldcraft is all about, and i think that is a part of the enjoyment with birding as well learning and trying to id birds and bird song when you are out birding.Making field notes and referring back to dvds,field guides and bird tapes when you get back home.If you are not sure of a bird that you have seen or heard.Think i am just a old fashioned type birder at heart.I have to admit i do have a pager and go twitching now and again.

 

[Steven Astley]

I agree with mark aswell, I was finding it impossible to learn bird calls from just birding alone until I started learning from recordings. Now I still find it challenging with common birds like funny sounding Great Tits and Jays mimicking Buzzards. So prior knowledge doesn't spoil the enjoyment or challenge mererly enhances it

Completely disagree with Rokers philosophy on birding, comparing scilly and Shetland, believing that there is possibly such a thing euro top 20 birders and now his views on limiting your knowledge the old fashioned way.

Just think Roker if you were 100s of years old you would be advocating birding without bins and bird guides.

 

[markgrubb]

I agree what you guys are saying about the bird tapes and dvds i think they are very useful for bird id and bird song.I have a few myself they are good for referring back to.But i think birders should 'nt depend on them to much.They should be able to try and learn the bird songs themselfs by listerning to the birds everytime they are out.That is how the older generation of birders learnt.I know it might seem difficult at first but it is only a matter of practice and in time you will get to know each bird song that is what fieldcraft is all about, and i think that is a part of the enjoyment with birding as well learning and trying to id birds and bird song when you are out birding.Making field notes and referring back to dvds,field guides and bird tapes when you get back home.If you are not sure of a bird that you have seen or heard.Think i am just a old fashioned type birder at heart.I have to admit i do have a pager and go twitching now and again.

I take your points-to a degree-whilst it's a good exercise to take field notes and compare at home you can't do that with sound-aural and visual memory are not that reliable-unless there is the odd person who can scribble a sonogram Knowing the songs and basic calls gives you a better chance of working out the less common ones or subsong-and isn't that what developing fieldcraft is all about?

 

[rokermartin]

I agree with mark aswell, I was finding it impossible to learn bird calls from just birding alone until I started learning from recordings. Now I still find it challenging with common birds like funny sounding Great Tits and Jays mimicking Buzzards. So prior knowledge doesn't spoil the enjoyment or challenge mererly enhances it

Completely disagree with Rokers philosophy on birding, comparing scilly and Shetland, believing that there is possibly such a thing euro top 20 birders and now his views on limiting your knowledge the old fashioned way.

Just think Roker if you were 100s of years old you would be advocating birding without bins and bird guides.

Hi dont get me wrong i am certainly not saying this new techology is a bad thing for birders to have, as i said it certainly helps birders with there id and bird song.Just think modern birders depend on it to much.As for Scilly and Shetland they have always been compared to each other ever since birders started looking for rarities.Their has certainly been a lot of debate over the years about which is best. but that is enough said on that subject.And for the top twenty european birders i do believe there can be such a thing.Also you could have the top 20 UK birders.

 

[Xenospiza]

I don't think ringers necessarily have an advantage to become good birders... plucking a bird out of a net or trap doesn't teach you much about behaviour! However, there is no denying that ringers can contribute to the knowledge of id-characters, but the same is true for twitchers, sound-recordists and photographers – and in all cases I know people who have either awful or excellent skills...
I don't think "local patching" is helpful for myself: I have to keep reminding myself how things look and sound! But listening to CD's can certainly help a lot to keep up!

 

[rokermartin]

I don't think ringers necessarily have an advantage to become good birders... plucking a bird out of a net or trap doesn't teach you much about behaviour! However, there is no denying that ringers can contribute to the knowledge of id-characters, but the same is true for twitchers, sound-recordists and photographers – and in all cases I know people who have either awful or excellent skills...
I don't think "local patching" is helpful for myself: I have to keep reminding myself how things look and sound! But listening to CD's can certainly help a lot to keep up!

Yes i agree with you about pulling a bird out of the trap or net does'nt teach you bird behaviour,But i think most ringers are all round birders as well.They certainly have the advantage on knowing topograhy and be able to do very detailed decriptions of birds.I am surprised no one has views on who they think are the top expert european or UK birders are .

 

[Jos Stratford]

And for the top twenty european birders i do believe there can be such a thing.

It is impossible to put together such a list - do we decide it by who best knows their local birds, who best knows all the scarce migrants in their country, who can identify the most species worldwide, who has published the most, etc, etc, etc. There are many persons who could be considered top in their own area, but just because good in one area, perhaps a better publicised area, eg rarity identification, does not make you better than the dedicated research worker or whatever.

Earier, you marvelled at that Finnish guy plucking out a RF Bluetail singing on a far hillside, that to me is nothing more than someone knowing his local birds (and being in Finland, a relatively small total of species to know anyhow). Who knows, take him out of his limited sphere of knowledge and he might flounder, or maybe not. And, out of interest, how could you decide to ran him above the likes of Steve Howell who is just about the most respected birder in Central America (a region with countless more species than northern Europe), or for the many others you didn't bother to mention, ie. British-born birders who have established themselves as recognised leaders in other birding hotspots around the world, including Southern Africa, etc.


For every good birder in one sphere, there is another in another, they are not comparable.

As for using technology or not, twitching or not, whether it all makes you lazy or better, or whatever, who cares? It is a hobby, if you feel it improves you or you enjoy it, that's the end of the discussion, do it.

 

[rokermartin]

Well i should have written who do people think are the top recognised European or UK bird experts for eg Brian Bland, Dick Forsman etc.That should be not impossible to do.

 

[KorHaan]

I think it could be that birder artists look at the birds - I mean really look at them - in order to produce accurate work. So I guess it would be logical for the artists to be good at i.d. too. I suppose it could also work the other way round, if the birder had artistic ability.

Before I became a comic strip artist I loved to draw birds. To make accurate drawings you have to look at the bird thoroughly, but to make a fine drawing you need an extra: imagination. I've seen nightjars hunting but to make a fine drawing of one in action I use my imagination to inspire me; the way a nightjar hunts, its jizz, the moment before it strikes.

See attached thumbnail.

I think I'm a good birder, because I look at detail in a bird, but I know of many birders in the Netherlands who have much, much better ID skills.

Regards, Ronald

 

[Hotspur]

I think I'm a good birder, because I look at detail in a bird, but I know of many birders in the Netherlands who have much, much better ID skills.

Regards, Ronald

And thats the crux of this, is being good at Id the only criteria for being a good birder? Is it your ability to observe miniscule features on a bird? Or to get a feel for the jizz. For me speedy ID whilst impressive is merely showing knowledge of whats around you and being able to take those cues and fit them into a schema that has been constructed over time. Thats not to dismiss these skills but i'm not sure they are the definition of a 'good' birder. Is someone who takes meticulous notes and gets definitive IDs on unknown and unfamiliar birds a better birder than one that knows his 'own' birds? Im not sure but there are a number of differing and skillful ways of approaching this hobby. Trying to shoehorn them into artificial criteria is probably not a way of diversifying these but merely applying structure (or stricture) where it is not needed.

 

[rosbifs]

Now we are getting technical! How do you define a birder? Perhaps we should refine the question or put some sub categories down - Fieldcraft, ringing, drawing/sketching, id skills in the field (if can differentiate from general fieldcraft).

I can't comment, or wouldn't like to, on the middle two. On the outside two would be european though as per earlier post....

 

[rokermartin]

Now we are getting technical! How do you define a birder? Perhaps we should refine the question or put some sub categories down - Fieldcraft, ringing, drawing/sketching, id skills in the field (if can differentiate from general fieldcraft).

I can't comment, or wouldn't like to, on the middle two. On the outside two would be european though as per earlier post....

I would say to be a real exceptional bird expert such as Dick Forsman or Killien Mullarney you need to be all round birder who knows everything about bird behavior,fieldcraft,jizz,bird id ,bird song,topograghy,writing very detailed notes and decriptions.Some of these experts
have done a bit of bird ringing ,many of them are bird artists as well.I think the average birder in the UK is'nt all that bothered whether they know everything about birds, its not a job to them its a enjoyable hobby.Some of the experts birders have made birding there job that is another reason why they are so good.

 

[rokermartin]

Most of the real good birders I know have great "ears". Learned yes- but surely also something you are born with.

Mike

Many of the leaders i have done bird holidays with i have noticed they have excellent hearing they can hear birds a good way off.I always thought i had very good hearing.

 

[chris murphy]

I would say to be a real exceptional bird expert such as Dick Forsman or Killien Mullarney you need to be all round birder who knows everything about bird behavior,fieldcraft,jizz,bird id ,bird song,topograghy,writing very detailed notes and decriptions.Some of these experts
have done a bit of bird ringing ,many of them are bird artists as well.I think the average birder in the UK is'nt all that bothered whether they know everything about birds, its not a job to them its a enjoyable hobby.Some of the experts birders have made birding there job that is another reason why they are so good.

Experts as they no doubt are, I'm sure that neither Killian Mullarney nor Dick Forsman know (or would claim to know) everything about bird behaviour, jizz etc.

 

[rokermartin]

Experts as they no doubt are, I'm sure that neither Killian Mullarney nor Dick Forsman know (or would claim to know) everything about bird behaviour, jizz etc.

Think they would claim to know most things about about bird behavior and jizz etc.They are after all two of europe's renowned bird experts.Think Dick Formans will know everything that you need to know about raptor id. He is the number one expert on raptors he has studied them in detail for years

 

[MSA]

Think they would claim to know most things about about bird behavior and jizz etc.They are after all two of europe's renowned bird experts.

Met Dick in Israel last year - as well as being a very knowledgable (and likeable) chap, he's well aware that he doesn't know everything, and was asking opinions of others who he acknowledged as knowing far more than him about the local birds! Also met Klaus Olsen, a gull expert, and it was quite illumunating to hear these two experts discussing the ID of various pictures in the evening, and birds in the field.

Talking of top UK birders, I strongly suspect the "10 rare men" of the BBRC know a thing or two about ID, fieldcraft, jizz etc.