Are our fellow European birders better than UK birders. (1 Viewer)

[rokermartin]

Met Dick in Israel last year - as well as being a very knowledgable (and likeable) chap, he's well aware that he doesn't know everything, and was asking opinions of others who he acknowledged as knowing far more than him about the local birds! Also met Klaus Olsen, a gull expert, and it was quite illumunating to hear these two experts discussing the ID of various pictures in the evening, and birds in the field.

Talking of top UK birders, I strongly suspect the "10 rare men" of the BBRC know a thing or two about ID, fieldcraft, jizz etc.

Well i think the local experts would have more knowledge than him about there locals birds especially on where to find certain species and the best time to see them.Thats why some bird tour leaders use a local guide as well .You cannot beat having a local guide with a group who knows where all the best places are to see the birds.

 

[rokermartin]

Met Dick in Israel last year - as well as being a very knowledgable (and likeable) chap, he's well aware that he doesn't know everything, and was asking opinions of others who he acknowledged as knowing far more than him about the local birds! Also met Klaus Olsen, a gull expert, and it was quite illumunating to hear these two experts discussing the ID of various pictures in the evening, and birds in the field.

Talking of top UK birders, I strongly suspect the "10 rare men" of the BBRC know a thing or two about ID, fieldcraft, jizz etc.

Yes you would think the ten rare men of the BBRC would know a thng or two about ID ,fieldcraft and jizz.After all they are checking birders rarity records.They will have to know alot about bird ID.The BBRC rarity commitee should have some of the top birders in the Uk on it.There has been a lot of moaning on over the years about the BBRC rarity committees about certain decisions concerning birds and various other issues.

 

[Dimitris]

Birders outside Britain are exposed to many more species then the average birder in Britain. For example Spain has say roughly 40++ more common bird species then the British isles. I would expect them to be more experienced then the average Brit for that reason alone.

I'm not saying that British birders are inferior, just that by having more common species to study you should expect your experience to be that much higher and frankly Britain is not that a bird diverse place.

Of course travelling can correct that very fast .

(Hope I didn't offend anyone)

Cheers!

Dimitris

 

[Helsinki Birder]

There is no quick fix answer to this question. Good birders can be produced by any country, and "being good" is more a measure of the Individuals drive and ability than their location.

Birding to me, in general and to use and term that is obtrusive to me personally, a "first world" game. The first world of America and Europe has more birders than other areas of the world. Why? Money. Birding is expensive. Optics, Travel, Books, Journals, food and celebratory drinks all add up.

As a result only those countries where "disposable income" is a reality, truly have large numbers of birders.
Some of these birders are novices and beginners, some arent but are still amateur, some are competent, some well above average and some can be classed as "expert". All of which is based solely on the perception of others anyway.

You can get into arguments about where its best to learn and how many species there are to be familiar with etc etc, but at the end of the day, you never know where the next "Guru" is going to come from and what information he/she will add to the pot.

From my perspective, Britain has some VERY excellent birders in its ranks, with more names that I am familiar with than other countries in Europe.

Pariah

 

[rokermartin]

Birders outside Britain are exposed to many more species then the average birder in Britain. For example Spain has say roughly 40++ more common bird species then the British isles. I would expect them to be more experienced then the average Brit for that reason alone.

I'm not saying that British birders are inferior, just that by having more common species to study you should expect your experience to be that much higher and frankly Britain is not that a bird diverse place.

Of course travelling can correct that very fast .

(Hope I didn't offend anyone)

Cheers!

Dimitris

Hi Dimitris you have a good point their in saying birders outside the UK are exposed to many more species than the average birder in the UK.The average birder in the UK certainly see less species of birds compared to european birders.So the european birders certainly have the advantage in bird id.We dont live in a bird rich country in terms of the number of species we have breeding, but the UK is the best place in europe for the mount of rare birds which are found especially for american birds.

 

[Jos Stratford]

So the european birders certainly have the advantage in bird id.

Messes up the theory for the Finns then.

 

[cajanuma]

Messes up the theory for the Finns then.

I've often wondered whether the opposite is true, that NW European (British/Dutch/Scandinavian) birders are so good precisely because they have fewer species, and thus they have to study and learn the common birds particularly well, which is what makes a good birder good. On the other hand in southern Europe (or in N America) we don't have to work as hard to see lots of birds, and so the approach to birding is more casual.

 

[rokermartin]

Messes up the theory for the Finns then.

You could say that about the rest of the Scandinivian
countries as well.But the Scandinivian countries have produced many of the top expert birders on id that we have in europe.Many of the top field guides and id papers have been written by Scandinivian birders.

 

[rokermartin]

I've often wondered whether the opposite is true, that NW European (British/Dutch/Scandinavian) birders are so good precisely because they have fewer species, and thus they have to study and learn the common birds particularly well, which is what makes a good birder good. On the other hand in southern Europe (or in N America) we don't have to work as hard to see lots of birds, and so the approach to birding is more casual.

Hi yes it is certainly very different birding in mainland europe compared to the UK.In many euopean countries you see birds everywhere you go which makes birding very easy.I can remember the first time i went to Spain and i was amazed to see how many birds that we could see ,just travelling about,seeing Corn Buntings,Woodchat Shrikes,Black Kites,Buzzards,Hoopoes everywhere.So living in mainland europe is certainly has a better advantage for european birders i would say for bird id.The way we do our birding is different in the UK to the rest of europe,for eg many birders twitch and i would say we are more competitive than in mainland europe.Also i think we take our birding far to seriously at times for eg birders having arguments over year lists etc.Most european birders dont go chasing after rarities.But this part of birding is becoming more popular especially in Holland were a quick a lot of birders do twitch.Have to say i think european birders are more mature and grown up in the way they behave and do there everyday birding compared to some UK birders.

 

[Jos Stratford]

Scandinivian countries have produced many of the top expert birders on id that we have in europe.

In many euopean countries you see birds everywhere you go which makes birding very easy. So living in mainland europe is certainly has a better advantage for european birders i would say for bird id.

Something not adding up.

 

[rokermartin]

Something not adding up.

Yes it is amazing how the Scandinvians have produced many top expert birds ,because Scandinavia does'nt really have big number of breeding species to study.But they do quite well for scarce and rare birds.

 

[Jos Stratford]

Scandinavia ...they do quite well for scarce and rare birds.

Not in comparison to, for example, the UK or Holland though.

 

[Stoned]

A mute point given the length of this thread, but is anyone really bothered which country has the most top-birders? It has been mentioned to me that the top people are those with the longest life lists, but all that tells me is they have more time and money than the rest of us!!

Keep it coming Jos.

 

[rokermartin]

A mute point given the length of this thread, but is anyone really bothered which country has the most top-birders? It has been mentioned to me that the top people are those with the longest life lists, but all that tells me is they have more time and money than the rest of us!!

Keep it coming Jos.

Any birder can have a huge life list but it does'nt mean they are a expert birder far from it. Think their has been some interesting points and comments made on this thread.So i think some people are interested in this subject.

 

[jurek]

Thread is very funny, but did you consider that in your own country you meet bad and good birders, but only the good ones go birding abroad?

 

[Xenospiza]

From what I've read, Lesvos is an excellent place to find some really bad birders abroad...

 

[rokermartin]

Thread is very funny, but did you consider that in your own country you meet bad and good birders, but only the good ones go birding abroad?

Hi Jurek glad you find this thread very funny,yes i have met good and bad birders in the UK over the years also the same in europe.Not to sure about only good ones go birding abroad.I have meet wide range of Uk birders with different capabilities while i have been birding abroad.

 

[rokermartin]

From what I've read, Lesvos is an excellent place to find some really bad birders abroad...

As for Lesvos i have heard it is like Scilly the amount of birders and tour companies that go in the spring migration period.My mate went a couple of years ago and he was bumping into bird tour groups all the time when he was there.Cannot comment on if they get really bad birders there .

 

[Jos Stratford]

It has come to my attention that you are indeed correct Rokerman, UK birders are crud.

Following in-depth studies, there appears to be a direct correlation between the birding expertise of a nation and the number of Cattle Egret per head of population - thus, there is hope yet for UK birders, they can really be seen as in the blossoming stage of the game, hopefully expertise will climb exponentially (presuming doom mongers do not exterminate colonising egrets).

The mighty Finns still buck the trend though - not a plume of an egret in sight, yet still they rank high on your lists. Maybe they are just stringy gits who plagerise everything, lie about sightings and get mates to play bluetail tapes when they think impressionable Brits are about.

 

[deborah4]

Roker .. not sure where you are going with this thread but tbh, I doubt whether anyone could even agree on what qualifies as a ''good'' birder and what doesn't. I'm not even sure that we can agree on whether the issue is methodology (ie. what field skills are being used? Are ''good'' birders guilty of inappropriate methods at times (ie. ''bad'' practice?) Do 'good' birders find their own birds, or does it matter? etc), breadth (ie. numbers of birds one has seen compared to others or intensity of learning experience (ie. quality of experience rather than quantity). Unless we all use the same criteria to decide what makes a ''good'' birder, how can we agree on who they are?!

It would be hard to have a sensible debate about something so subjective without offending someone! Especially if generalisations start to center around nationalities.