Here it is, right here.
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Blackouts looking at edge of FOV with Noctivid 8x (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter hopster
- Start date
If edge blackouts are happening no matter how what you do with the eyecups (I thought from reading your original post that extending the eyecups solved that issue) the only other things I can suggest would be:
- eye placement ie. where you put the binoculars over your eyes. 8x42s ought to be pretty forgiving in this respect, but it may be that something about your individual perception demands very careful eye placement. You have already stated that you've tried varying the IPD without success (I would recommend doing so again, but making very very slight adjustments as sometimes only a very slight nudge is needed - NB. the old porros with a scale showing IPD were helpful here; I've also found that on a day to day basis I sometimes need to adjust IPD very slightly for maximum eye comfort); if you are convinced that all IPD adjustments have been tried and will not resolve the issue...
- the only thing left, short of changing the binocular in question, is to try different glasses. This can make a surprising difference - both in the curvature/position of the lenses interacting with your binoculars but also how steadily the frame rests on your features: the steadier the frame is itself, and how it rests, the better. Incidentally, having a top-quality pair of glasses probably isn't a bad idea if you want to wring every last ounce of optical quality from your binoculars. I have admittedly been somewhat remiss about following that particular piece of advice myself, but I really ought to.
Most of it. I've had the opportunity to compare the 8x42 FL with my brother's 8.5 Swarovski on multiple occasions and without a doubt the image quality near the edge is not as good - you really notice this after using flat field binoculars (using the Nikon 10x42 SE as much as I do does not help!). But after a fairly brief adaptation period I get used to it and it's good enough for me. It may be that my eyes' accommodation ability is still sufficient to overcome the FL's edge aberrations. I use other non flat field binoculars fairly regularly and get along well with them too.
It may be that in having started out with pretty average binoculars, from which everything I now use is an improvement, and having had the good fortune to try quite a few different binoculars over the years, some of which took a while to learn how best to look through them (for want of a better expression), I've had a fair amount of practice in adapting to binoculars. I'm very grateful for that.
PS. I think conditions can be challenging at this time of the year - poorer weather resulting in poorer light, and the low sun angle can make things awkward even on sunny days if what you're looking towards is anywhere near the sun. But equally there's no heat haze, or that very harsh summer sunlight...
Mskb hit the nail on the head in post #9.
If you rotate your eyes 30° towards the field stop there will be lateral movement of your eye pupils, which will vignette the exit pupil.
Were you to fix the binocular on a tripod and look toward the field edge on the left, then you would move your head to the right to eliminate the effect
Doing this I have also noticed a reduction in lateral colour.
The larger the exit pupil, the lower this effect, which possibly explains the immersive views of 7x50s and 8x56s.
John
PS:- The Maven video was OK but repeated the silly myth of needing to set the dioptre at longer object distances. Regardless of object distance the image formed by the objectives will always be placed in the same relationship to the focal plane of the eyepieces. The preferred virtual image distance will remain constant for the user's individual eyes.
If you rotate your eyes 30° towards the field stop there will be lateral movement of your eye pupils, which will vignette the exit pupil.
Were you to fix the binocular on a tripod and look toward the field edge on the left, then you would move your head to the right to eliminate the effect
Doing this I have also noticed a reduction in lateral colour.
The larger the exit pupil, the lower this effect, which possibly explains the immersive views of 7x50s and 8x56s.
John
PS:- The Maven video was OK but repeated the silly myth of needing to set the dioptre at longer object distances. Regardless of object distance the image formed by the objectives will always be placed in the same relationship to the focal plane of the eyepieces. The preferred virtual image distance will remain constant for the user's individual eyes.
William Lewis
Wishing birdwatching paid the bills.
Hi Hopster.
Good to hear your getting on so well with the noctivid. Tidy set of bins.
I have the same problem with blackouts with quite a few binoculars. More often than not I cannot see the field stop as a crisp defined circle in regular viewing, it's like this with with my e2, also with the old SLC 8x56hd and many other.
It sounds like the nocitivds have enough eye relief for your glasses though so that's good.
The reason I don't see the field stop is that I need to extend the eye cups (or not press rubber fold down ones into my eye sockets too much) to avoid blackouts. I tend not to lose a great deal of fov at all after doing this and can move my eyes around the fov a bit as well - it's a very workable compromise that doesn't detract from my enjoyment.
As you've now found for yourself there isn't much you can do to avoid blackouts other than move your eye further from the eye lens, so that unfortunately is what you must do.
Sometimes I do bump into a binocular with a decent sized fov that I can see the field stop of without getting blackouts though, they're very much worth looking for.
Will
Good to hear your getting on so well with the noctivid. Tidy set of bins.
I have the same problem with blackouts with quite a few binoculars. More often than not I cannot see the field stop as a crisp defined circle in regular viewing, it's like this with with my e2, also with the old SLC 8x56hd and many other.
It sounds like the nocitivds have enough eye relief for your glasses though so that's good.
The reason I don't see the field stop is that I need to extend the eye cups (or not press rubber fold down ones into my eye sockets too much) to avoid blackouts. I tend not to lose a great deal of fov at all after doing this and can move my eyes around the fov a bit as well - it's a very workable compromise that doesn't detract from my enjoyment.
As you've now found for yourself there isn't much you can do to avoid blackouts other than move your eye further from the eye lens, so that unfortunately is what you must do.
Sometimes I do bump into a binocular with a decent sized fov that I can see the field stop of without getting blackouts though, they're very much worth looking for.
Will
hopster
Well-known member
Glad I'm not alone!
When you stop getting the beans can you still see the field stop?
I'm seeing a few answers saying that the Swaro EL allows roaming around with relative ease.
hopster
Well-known member
Yes I understand that. What I am not so clear about is how far you need to rotate your eye to the see the FOV edge (is 30 degrees a good estimate of that?) and how much of the overlap between your pupil and light beam coming through the eyepieces becomes lost in doing that. On a bright day I would imagine pupils are something like 2.5mm. In an 8x42 the exit pupil should be 5.25mm. So without calculating the trigonometry carefully, I would have thought that there would be a fair amount of leeway to move your eye and not lose the full overlap. This of course assumes that (1) you are completely centred on the light beam which is about IPD and (2) the light beam at your ER setting is the full 5.25mm. I believe that different eyepieces will allow subtle differences here and hence different kidney bean behaviour.
Yes I think we do that automatically.
Definitely. A big difference.
That's why I am considering one but they are going to be hefty.
Good low light bins too though.
hopster
Well-known member
I have tried pretty hard to understand all the IPD possibilities yes, and these obviously change slightly close up and at infinity.
I have had an old pair of frames reglazed with standard index CR39 single vision with antireflection coatings which is the best you will get short of optical glass. I did ask about optical glass but nobody was keen to provide them. I might explore this again.
These old frames are quite small and a good fit deep into my eye sockets which gives me an ER advantage on my Meostar 12x50 which is very marginal for ER. I can just see the field stop now with a hack similar to HenRun's. On the NV it just means I have more ER leeway because it would also be fine with normal frames.
I had the HT 10x42 for a while which had a very similar view. An excellent binocular in many ways, just a bit lacking in red/warmth and mine developed a moisture leak on one eyepiece.
Yes I'm sure that's true.
hopster
Well-known member
Yes I really like them in all other ways.
Interesting, even in an 8x56 with huge exit pupils.
Yes plenty.
It sounds similar to my situation, but it seems a shame to lose the FOV edge by moving too far out.
Do you remember any that did?
Conndomat
United States of Europe
"You'll never walk alone!"
yes, but as I said, I have to hit exactly the middle of the EP and keep the glass steady otherwise things will go bad quickly.
It's a bit "tricky."
I think the EL is very comfortable in this regard and overall there is rarely any criticism of the 8.5x42.
Andreas
Mine referred specifically to the 10X42, no other, as I have no significant experience with others.
For what it's worth, I don't see the field stop in most of my binoculars as a "crisp defined circle" either, nor do I feel the need to. I'll see the field stop all right when I look towards it, but not always will I see a classic, knife-edge, sharply defined transition. That is not the same as the "blackout" phenomenon which happens when my eyes get too close. Like you I increase the eyecup extension once I start getting blackouts (in any area of my FOV). For some binoculars the field stop goes way out, and I like that - gives me the "open window" effect, and I suppose feels more "immersive".
Beyond the lens material - the frame itself can (in my experience) make a difference. How far it holds the binoculars from your face, how curved the lenses are etc. My previous pair of glasses, frameless and a closer fit than my current ones, do not suit the long eye relief of my Nikon 10x42 SE as well.
I've found eye placement with the EL 8.5x42 (not so much the 10x42 because of smaller exit pupil) is exceptionally easy, the most effortless and accessible binocular of that exit pupil size I've used - that said, when using it over a long period I do still instinctively make those small adjustments for ultimate comfort. I feel the flat field (oft disdained here on Birdforum) helps both with initial eye placement and with fatigue over long glassing sessions. Maybe having practically the entire field of view sharp decreases brain workload in trying to accommodate for areas around the edge that are not sharp. But my scanning is over pretty long distances and I normally keep the binocular steady and study the entire field of view (a bit like I'd read a book - I do this with eye movements rather than head movements). Close-in birding is very different.
NB. I don't have an issue with colour rendition of this or pretty much any other binocular really. If I look at a goldfinch its red face and yellow wing-spots will stand out clearly, I'll see the pink of a male chaffinch just fine.
I haven't been able to try out Noctivids but I have 8x42 SF's and I feel your pain with the blackouts, it's a constant torment with the SF's. I've been able to control the problem by unscrewing the eyecups an extra turn past the farthest clickstop, but it still crops up from time to time. The SF design just has a very tight tolerance for your eye placement.
e.g., I compared my 10x42 EDG to my 8x42 SF's and eye placement in the smaller-exit-pupil EDG was much easier than in the SF's. I would recommend the EDG series to anyone that wants the most comfortable eyebox/panning behavior. However, I've stuck with the 8x42 SF instead of replacing them with an 8x42 EDG because I like their other favorable characteristics better! So there you go. Even with some blackout trouble, the Noctivid may still be your favorite 8x42.
It sounds like these blackout tendencies are common in the current generation of modern wide-fields. I've read people complaining about the same problem in Swaro NL's, I've experienced it trying out pairs of Nikon Monarch HG's. I chose Swaro 10x56 SLC over the Leica UVHD 10x50 I wanted to keep because the eye placement/blackout situation is much better in the 10x56. It doesn't show up in specs, you have to try them yourself to evaluate it.
e.g., I compared my 10x42 EDG to my 8x42 SF's and eye placement in the smaller-exit-pupil EDG was much easier than in the SF's. I would recommend the EDG series to anyone that wants the most comfortable eyebox/panning behavior. However, I've stuck with the 8x42 SF instead of replacing them with an 8x42 EDG because I like their other favorable characteristics better! So there you go. Even with some blackout trouble, the Noctivid may still be your favorite 8x42.
It sounds like these blackout tendencies are common in the current generation of modern wide-fields. I've read people complaining about the same problem in Swaro NL's, I've experienced it trying out pairs of Nikon Monarch HG's. I chose Swaro 10x56 SLC over the Leica UVHD 10x50 I wanted to keep because the eye placement/blackout situation is much better in the 10x56. It doesn't show up in specs, you have to try them yourself to evaluate it.
hopster
Well-known member
More interesting food for thought, thanks Scott98 and Patudo.
EL gets another up vote, as does the EDG, and SF gets a downvote. I remember not finding the SF that easy to use in terms of eye placement either, along with an image quality that I felt was a step down from the HT.
I agree with the observations of both Patudo and Scotty. EDG and EL both super comfortable for roaming the eye. SF a non starter for me.
In terms of handling, the EDG is a (beautiful) brick with maybe the best focus movement ever, the EL maybe handles better due to the bridge layout, although some find the need to stretch the index finger to the focus wheel a little uncomfortable (not me though). The EDG also has my favourite of all eyecups, they interact beautifully with me and my glasses.
But, beware the EDG optics on dull days, the EL's feel brighter, and have a vibrancy lacking in the EL's. Both wonderful, but very different, both ergonomically and optically. I would also have more faith in the Swaro warranty and getting them easily repaired if needs be.
I do think you need to try the NL's to see if they work better for you than your NV, to enable you to include or exclude them from your list of potential NV replacements. If you don't, you'll always wonder...😉
