Eponymical challenges (1 Viewer)

[Björn Bergenholtz]

Speculations on possible continuation ...

James,
Here´s a real long-shot ... but it might, perhaps, lead you further.

I don´t have the full back-ground on Hermann Grote and I haven´t seen the information of him being unmarried, (more than Rick's note from 1908, in this thread), maybe he married later or beacame a widower? I´m just guessing. Do you know for certain that was born on July 7 (like in the Obituary) or the day before, July 6, in 1882? A difference in one day is not very rare, sometimes the birth date was noted, sometimes the (then often promptly) following baptism.

Maybe this could be him ... and her?

http://records.ancestry.com/Hermann_Johannes_Grote_records.ashx?pid=180462832

http://records.ancestry.com/Gertrud_Vietzen_records.ashx?pid=169112066

http://www.mytrees.com/ancestry/Other/Married-1910/Vi/Vietzen-family/Gertrud-Vietzen-fe000103-541.html

Take it for what its worth; in any case ... it looks like both of these Hermann and Gertrud (whomever they were) vanished. Maybe to German East Africa? Who knows?

 

[James Jobling]

Bjorn, Interesting ancestry links. Rick had earlier shown Hermann Grote to be unmarried in 1908. Your links show that Hermann Johannes Grote married Gertrud Vietzen (b. 1890) in 1910. It might be them, but I cannot link H. Grote of German East Africa fame with H. J. Grote, and the trail then grows cold, so we will never know for sure. As a matter of interest a Lt. Freiherr Grote was killed in German East Africa in March 1916 during British actions against the forces of von Lettow-Vorbeck.

 

[MJB]

As a matter of interest a Lt. Freiherr Grote was killed in German East Africa in March 1916 during British actions against the forces of von Lettow-Vorbeck.

James,
And thereby hangs another, but off-topic tale. Elements of von Lettow-Vorbeck's forces did not hear of the November 1918 Armistice, and subsequently thought it a ruse, and so continued fighting until late 1919 (some sources say early 1920); some of the last-surviving combatants didn't get back home to Germany until 1922...
MJB

 

[Björn Bergenholtz]

Grote, Hermann. 1934. Zwei neue Formen aus Deutsch-Ostafrika. Ornithologische Monatsberichte 42.3: 86-88.

Rick, do you still have access to this volume, No. 42? But regarding page 101 ...

See thread: http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=274995

 

[Björn Bergenholtz]

Rick, do you still have access to this volume, No. 42? But regarding page 101 ...

Do´nt bother about this reguest. I´ve got it!

 

[Taphrospilus]

Grote, H. 1926. Cinnyris chalybeus gertrudis nov. subsp. Ornithologische Monatsberichte 34.6: 183.

Meanwhile online here

Serinus mozambicus gertrudis Grote, 1934, Ornith. Monatsb., 42, p. 87.

Online here (think not discussed in this thread).

 

[Björn Bergenholtz]

[...]

Serinus mozambicus gertrudis Grote, 1934, Ornith. Monatsb., 42, p. 87.

Online here (think not discussed in this thread).

Nope, not in this particular thread ... but back in 2014, in thread Eponyms in German journals, we were dealing with Serinus mozambicus gertudis GROTE 1934 (here, with the OD itself attached), even if not very successful (as I remember it, without checking my notes). And I have no idea if James have solved it since, or not.

However; good that the full paper is now accessible to all.

Cheers

Björn
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[PScofield]

Hermann Johannes Grote

7 July 1882 - 12 August 1951.

Whilst called a German Ornithologist it is notable that Grote was born in St Petersburg, Russia (not Florida!).

Hermann married Gertrud Luise Vietzen (12 Apr 1890 - 21 Sept 1955) in 1910.

 

[Taphrospilus]

I am wondering here
https://books.google.com/books?id=d...hUKEwjbqvm32-XsAhWO3KQKHSXPCsEQ6AEwAHoECAIQAg why 9.7. 1882. And it is absolutely confirmed St. Petersburg? I ask as there is e.g. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petersburg_(Attendorn).

@ Paul. Do you know which district of Berlin Grote died?

 

[PScofield]

Attached is Hermann's death certificate. This identifies Saint Petersburg as his birthplace Gertrud as his wife and 7 July 1882 as his birth date.

P

 

[James Jobling]

Following positive evidence, Key MS entry gertrudis now amended to include;
• Gertrud Luise Grote née Vietzen (1890-1955) wife of German ornithologist Hermann Grote (Rick Wright, Björn Bergenholtz, and Paul Scofield in litt.) (Cinnyris, syn. Ochrospiza mozambica, syn. Pseudhirundo griseopyga).

 

[Taphrospilus]

Following positive evidence, Key MS entry gertrudis now amended to include;
• Gertrud Luise Grote née Vietzen (1890-1955) wife of German ornithologist Hermann Grote (Rick Wright, Björn Bergenholtz, and Paul Scofield in litt.) (Cinnyris, syn. Ochrospiza mozambica, syn. Pseudhirundo griseopyga).

Just a guess it might be worth to check as well Grotes entry (if not already done) and amend his middle name.

PS. Are there any missing apart from the ones mentioned in The Eponym Dictionary of Birds?

Groteiplectes Wolters, 1943 NCR [Now in Euplectes] Black-browed Fulvetta Alcippe grotei Delacour, 1936 Fischer's Greenbul ssp. Phyllastrephus fischeri grotei Reichenow, 1910 NCR; NRM Green-winged Pytilia ssp. Pytilia melba grotei Reichenow, 1919 Hildebrandt's Francolin ssp. Pternistis hildebrandti grotei Reichenow, 1919 NCR; NRM African Dusky Flycatcher ssp. Muscicapa adusta grotei Reichenow, 1921 NCR [JS Muscicapa adusta pumila] Vinaceous Dove ssp. Streptopelia vinacea grotei Reichenow, 1926 NCR;; NRM Madagascar Bulbul ssp. Hypsipetes madagascariensis grotei Friedmann, 1929 Yellow-fronted Canary ssp. Serinus mozambicus grotei W. L. Sclater & Mackworth-Praed, 1931 [Syn. Crithagra mozambica grotei] Bluethroat ssp. Luscinia svecica grotei Dement'ev 1932 NCR [JS Luscinia svecica volgae] Olive-flanked Robin Chat ssp. Cossypha anomala grotei Reichenow, 1932 African Pipit ssp. Anthus cinnamomeus grotei Niethammer, 1957
Herman Grote (1882–1951) was a sisal planter in German East Africa ...

 

[PScofield]

● chui
… in "Tribura tacsanowskia chui" YEN 1933: "Ich benenne diesen Vogel zu Ehren Prof. Chu, vormaligem Direktor der Sun-Yatsen Universität, der unseren Expeditionen alle erforderlichen Unterstützungen erteilt hat und noch erteilt".

The problem is that there were at least 9 Sun Yat-sen Universities

it may refer to Sun Yat-sen University "(traditional Chinese: 中山大學; simplified Chinese: 中山大学; pinyin: Zhōngshān Dàxué), abbreviated SYSU and colloquially known in Chinese as Zhongda (Chinese: 中大; pinyin: Zhōngdà), also known as Zhongshan University, is a major Chinese public research university located in Guangzhou, Guangdong, China. It was founded in 1924 by and named after Sun Yat-sen, a revolutionary and the founding father of the Republic of China."

BUT it may also refer to:

National Sun Yat-sen University, Taiwan
Moscow Sun Yat-sen University, Soviet Union
National 2nd Sun Yat-sen University, currently Wuhan University
National 3rd Sun Yat-sen University, currently Zhejiang University
National 4th Sun Yat-sen University, currently Nanjing University and National Central University
National 5th Sun Yat-sen University, currently Henan University
National Lanchow Sun Yat-sen University, currently Lanzhou University
National Sian (Xi'an) Sun Yat-sen University

So it may be Chu Yuan-Ting (Zhu Yuanding, 朱元鼎) (1896-1986): Chinese ichthyologist

But it is probably Professor Chu Hsi-tsu (Zhu Xizu, 朱希祖) (1879-?) noted Chinese historian who was the ?second director of Zhongda.

P

 

[Björn Bergenholtz]

Another one maybe Yuan-Ting Chu 1896-1986. Chinese icthyologist

Paul, "Prof. Chu" was mentioned as the former Director of "Sun-Yatsen Universität" in Yen's OD of "Tribura tacsanowskia chui" (from 1933), see post #18, in the old thread Eponyms in German journals, from back in 2014, here (alt. #44).

If that would, or could, match the "Chinese icthyologist" you're suggesting; "Yuan-Ting Chu (1896-1986)", a k a "director, of the Shanghai Fisheries" (in 1971) is far, far beyond me. Apparently he's commemorated in at least one Fish species:

Nibea chui Trewavas 1971 in honor of Yuan-Ting Chu (1896-1986), director, Shanghai Fisheries Institute, who, with two collaborators, published a “penetrating account” of western Pacific sciaenids in 1963.

[quoted from the The ETYFish Project here]​

Though he's also mentioned as a possible dedicatee for:

Gymnocypris chui chui Tchang, Yueh & Hwang 1964 patronym not identified, perhaps in honor of Yuan-Ting Chu (1896-1986), director, Shanghai Fisheries Institute, who published many papers on Chinese fishes in the 1930s.

[quoted from ditto here]​

Either way, if it's "his" (Chinese) Bush Warbler, as well, or not, is harder to tell ...

Though I somewhat doubt it, looks a bit far-fetched, almost 40 years apart.

But, who knows, we've seen stranger cases.

Björn

[PS. As Paul's preceding post kept on expanding while I was writing this one (and re-writing it, trying to keep up) ]
Who the latter guy, the added "Professor Chu Hsi-tsu (Zhu Xizu, 朱希祖) (1879-?)" was, or if he's a more likely candidate ... I haven't got a clue!
..

 

[Taphrospilus]

The problem is that there were at least 9 Sun Yat-sen Universities

it may refer to Sun Yat-sen University "(traditional Chinese: 中山大學; simplified Chinese: 中山大学; pinyin: Zhōngshān Dàxué), abbreviated SYSU and colloquially known in Chinese as Zhongda (Chinese: 中大; pinyin: Zhōngdà), also known as Zhongshan University, is a major Chinese public research university located in Guangzhou, Guangdong, China. It was founded in 1924 by and named after Sun Yat-sen, a revolutionary and the founding father of the Republic of China."

I think it is relativly clear as introduction states here:

In einer Vogelsammlung ans Süd-China, die mir Herr Prof. S. S. Sin von der Sun Yatsen-Universität in Kanton nach Paris gesandt hat, habe ich einige interessante neue Unterarten gefunden, die nachfolgend beschrieben seien.

Who ever S. S. Sin was Cinclus pallasii sini was dedicated to him. According The Eponym Dictionary of Birds he was a botanist b. 1891.

But see here:

SIN, S.S. (XIN Shu-Zhi; 1894–1977; Figure 12.9A) studied at Berlin University, Germany, before his appointment as a professor and director of the Department of Biology of Sun Yat-Sen University, 1928–1932. From 1950 until his retirement his well-known biologist and agricultural historian was a professor and dean of the Northwest Agriculture College.

 

[PScofield]

Thanks for that clarification. As it's clear that it is what is now Zhongshan University then it is straightforward to assume that the former Director of "Sun-Yatsen Universität" who was the dedicatee of Tribura tacsanowskia chui" YEN 1933 is not Yuan-Ting Chu (1896-1986) who was never a director of "Sun-Yatsen Universität" but Professor Chu Hsi-tsu (Zhu Xizu, 朱希祖) (1879-1944) who was.

P

 

[Björn Bergenholtz]

Well done guys!

Yet another Paper, earlier hard-to-find, now in full access on the "net"! :t:

But Paul,
Where did you find your latest suggestion (for "chui"); "Professor Chu Hsi-tsu (Zhu Xizu, 朱希祖) (1879-1944)", ... as the former Director of "Sun-Yatsen Universität" (in Canton, China), and even more precisely; as in him being the "former" ditto, in 1933...?

Couldn't this case (or cases) simply be a misinterpretation, or a today dated (German) transciption, of the Chinese name (and names) of Mr "S. S. Sin" (i.e today; S. Z. Xin), the Chinese Professor Shu Zhi Xin (1894–1977), "director of the Department of Biology of Sun Yat-Sen University [in Canton, China], 1928–1932. ... ", a k a Professor "Chu" (when using his first given name, that today would be; Professor Shu) ... or ?

Years match. Eastern versus Western order of names, Family versus given names... which would mean that the latter guy might (could possibly) be commemorated in both(!?!):

sini & chui as in ...
• "Cinclus pallasii sini" (1933)
• "Tribura tacsanowskia chui" (1933)

Or not?

The odd thing (to me), and the question remaining (in such a scenario) is; why the Author used two different scientific names, if aimed at the same guy!?

Björn

 

[Björn Bergenholtz]

Paul, I'm still a bit curious on ...

...
Where did you find your latest suggestion (for "chui"); "Professor Chu Hsi-tsu (Zhu Xizu, 朱希祖) (1879-1944)", ... as the former Director of "Sun-Yatsen Universität" (in Canton, China), and even more precisely; as in him being the "former" ditto, in 1933...?
...

I cannot find any such information at all.

Björn

 

[PScofield]

Bjorn

Sorry I don't follow this argument

How can Zhu Xizu be mistaken for Xin Shuzhi?

It would be like calling you, Professor BJ.

Zhu and Shuzhi are totally different words...

P

 

[Björn Bergenholtz]

Bjorn

Sorry I don't follow this argument

How can Zhu Xizu be mistaken for Xin Shuzhi?

It would be like calling you, Professor BJ.

Zhu and Shuzhi are totally different words...

P

Paul, yes, I know it might seem a bit farfetched, but I just want to rule out the possibility of Professor "Sin" and "Chu" being the one and same person. I don't say that the are, but only that they could be, or might be ... this far (that's the very reason for all those many question marks in my post #37)

And, sure, "Zhu and Shuzhi" certainly are (or certainly looks like) two different words (at least when written in Western letters)

But are you all certain that Zhu Xi Zu (or Chu Zhi Xu) versus Xin Shu Zhi (or even Chin Chu Xi) would be?

We've earlier seen various transcriptions, and interpretations, of Chinese letters and ditto words or names, more or less cleverly done, in various Western languages (in resp. traditions, or by ditto rules, at times changing ones), with or without the different Chinese combined (Given) names, hyphenated, or not, and the Surnames/family names, being all confused by the Eastern versus Western order of names (Given versus Surnames, First or last, or vice versa) and by now we know that such cases certainly could result in ... quite a mess!

For an example (the one closest by), see the latter quote in Martin's post #35: "SIN, S.S. (XIN Shu-Zhi; 1894–1977" ... that might seem a bit confusing to many readers (also to me).

Even far more odd versions of various Chinese names, both of Surnames and given names, with or without parts of either one (either written backwards, or the proper way, in even stranger interpretations of how one part, or the other, ought to be written) has been seen.

Following this (maybe exaggeratedly suspicious) way of thinking; any possible Zhu Xizu or Xin Shuzhi (alt. a Chu Zhi Su, or even Xi Chu Xi versus Chin/Sin Chu Xi, or a Zhu/Chu Z/Xitsu), in German, French, Italian, etc., etc. ... could (even if all erroneous, in English) fairly easy have turned into either a "Prof. Sin", or a "Prof. Chu". Or the other way around?

Note, again: I didn't, and don't, say that this is what happened in this certain (German/Chinese) case, but simply wanted to keep it as an option. Until we all know better.


I will show "my case" in further detail, but before trying to compile it all, I would still like to know the source of your claim of "Professor Chu Hsi-tsu (Zhu Xizu, 朱希祖) (1879-1944)" as him being the Former Director (in 1933) of that certain University.

Maybe I don't have to compile anything at all?

If so, I certainly wouldn't mind.

We'll see.

Prof. BJ
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