FEMALE Eastern Black Redstart - Isle of Wight UK (1 Viewer)

[traceyj]

Opinions are required with this specific bird as everyone who has watched it agrees that it's behaviour is exactly as for Black Redstart, ie very strong affinity to buildings and concrete even when there is thick vegetation nearby, happy to be out in the open, not particularly worried about humans, etc. If you were watching it as a silhouette you would swear it was Black.

But, we appreciate that doesn't make it Black !

Circumstantial : very late date for a Common but likely date if we were lucky enough to get an Eastern Black Redstart. Now here for the 8th day (appeared back end of Oct and is still present now (3rd Dec) looking like a bird that has reached it's destination, not one that's just stopping off on the way to Africa (it seems to be very healthy, and feeding well).

There appears to be very few details on FEMALE European Black Redstarts - most references are on the males - hence reaching out to this community in order to obtain any insight / feedback. Colouration of this bird appears to be the Asian sub species if it is a EBR.

Thank you in advance

Tracey

 

[Xenospiza]

Primary spacing is the thing to watch.

https://britishbirds.co.uk/sites/default/files/2016_V109_N04_P211-219_EBlackRedstart.pdf

https://www.dutchbirding.nl/journal/pdf/DB_2005_27_3.pdf#page=21

When I check page 181 in the Dutch Birding article, I think this looks more like a Common or a hybrid (p5-p6 : p6-p7 almost 1:1, where it should be 1:2 for an Eastern Black Redstart). I may be mistaken, I am not the best at primary projections!

 

[traceyj]

Primary spacing is the thing to watch.

https://britishbirds.co.uk/sites/default/files/2016_V109_N04_P211-219_EBlackRedstart.pdf

https://www.dutchbirding.nl/journal/pdf/DB_2005_27_3.pdf#page=21

When I check page 181 in the Dutch Birding article, I think this looks more like a Common or a hybrid (p5-p6 : p6-p7 almost 1:1, where it should be 1:2 for an Eastern Black Redstart). I may be mistaken, I am not the best at primary projections!

Thank you so much for your input - this very much helps. We have seen the British Birds article but not the one from Dutch Birding. Thank you again.

 

[Alexander Stöhr]

Hello Tracey,

your excellent pictures makes assesment of underwing coverts easy: evident/clear peachy-orange colouration is also a good feature of Common against Blackstart.
Although this isnt easy to see in the field (yes digitsl camera area has changed this)

 

[Farnboro John]

Hello Tracey,

your excellent pictures makes assesment of underwing coverts easy: evident/clear peachy-orange colouration is also a good feature of Common against Blackstart.
Although this isnt easy to see in the field (yes digitsl camera area has changed this)

Blackstart a rather different bird......

John

 

[traceyj]

Hello Tracey,

your excellent pictures makes assesment of underwing coverts easy: evident/clear peachy-orange colouration is also a good feature of Common against Blackstart.
Although this isnt easy to see in the field (yes digitsl camera area has changed this)

Hi Alexander - many thanks for your input and compliments - can I ask - whereas this looks like a Common Redstart - the behaviour appears to be very odd - and basically - in the UK - this bird should either be on it's way to Africa or already arrived.......if it was just tired from its journey - then it wold rest for a day, re-fuel and be on its way again - this bird is hanging around. In addition, it is demonstrating traits of a Black Redstart. We know that there are sub species of the EBR with the Asian birds travelling much further around this timeframe & also appearing to be very much lighter - hence appearing to be a similar colouration to the Common Redstart female - but as Xenospiz has pointed out the primary projections aspect is also essential to take into consideration. It's a real tricky one - I can only presume that potentially the Primary Projection is really the only thing that can potentially separate the two species? Obviously a feather from the bird would enable us to get a DNA sample - but seeing as the bird s located on National Trust land - this would be very difficult to achieve.

 

[traceyj]

Blackstart a rather different bird......

John

Totally understand John - and there are a number of Black Redstarts already present in this location.....BUT if you look at the link Xenospiza shared from British Birds - you will see on Page 8 the Female EBR looks very similar and nothing like a Black Redstart....and this bird appears to be very similar....hence the debate with the Birders at this end and what it is....

 

[Farnboro John]

Totally understand John - and there are a number of Black Redstarts already present in this location.....BUT if you look at the link Xenospiza shared from British Birds - you will see on Page 8 the Female EBR looks very similar and nothing like a Black Redstart....and this bird appears to be very similar....hence the debate with the Birders at this end and what it is....

Hi Tracey,

I was having a joke with Alexander about his shortening of Black Redstart to Blackstart when the Middle East has a bird already called a Blackstart. I agree with him and others that Redstart (Common- or European Redstart if you prefer) is more likely the correct identification.

Birds on autumn migration, without the hormonal impulse to get on and start breeding, often linger for some time at intervals during the journey. A stay of several days when apparently fit is not unusual. Likewise habitat preferences become plastic.

Cheers

John

 

[traceyj]

Hi Tracey,

I was having a joke with Alexander about his shortening of Black Redstart to Blackstart when the Middle East has a bird already called a Blackstart. I agree with him and others that Redstart (Common- or European Redstart if you prefer) is more likely the correct identification.

Birds on autumn migration, without the hormonal impulse to get on and start breeding, often linger for some time at intervals during the journey. A stay of several days when apparently fit is not unusual. Likewise habitat preferences become plastic.

Cheers

John

OK John - understand - this bird was spotted on the 26th Oct and is still here - seen this morning and has weathered a rather large storm from yesterday - so she is as tough as old boots! In addition - breeding season is now over for the Redstarts here - the should have moved to the Wintering grounds now...so Black Redstarts come in now - Common Redstarts leave end of Sept - at a push, beginning of Oct but generally not beyond - so this bird - whatever she is, is very late!

 

[traceyj]

OK John - understand - this bird was spotted on the 26th Oct and is still here - seen this morning and has weathered a rather large storm from yesterday - so she is as tough as old boots! In addition - breeding season is now over for the Redstarts here - the should have moved to the Wintering grounds now...so Black Redstarts come in now - Common Redstarts leave end of Sept - at a push, beginning of Oct but generally not beyond - so this bird - whatever she is, is very late!

Apologies John - just re-read your message and can see that you have stated "without the hormonal impulse to get on and start breeding" so please ignore some of my text - obviously not 100% with it today!

 

[Alexander Stöhr]

Hello,

thanks John! I didnt noticed it but you are right. Thanks!


Hello Tracey,

regarding your bird: please note these features (they work against Black Redstart from the european ssp)

• yes I agree with your many individuals are differently coloured, with Black Redstarts beeing uniformely dark with hue in the cold/coal/darkish-grey or sooty-blackish or blackish grey range (and therefore different to your warmly coloured bird)
• clear and evident warm buffish-orange hues on the flanks and a whitish belly with a warm orangey wash
• contrast between paler underparts and darker back/wings. Black Redstarts are uniformer.
• Very few Black Redstart have slightly "whitish" flanks/underparts, but they are still in the darkish range and with a clear grey underlay. And regular the result of fluffed feathers with the plumes shining through. This is often most prominent=most "pitfallish" when viewd from behind.
• Please compare to these two 1cy Black Redstarts (July 2021, Schwetzinger Wiesen, SW-Germany): Hausrotschwanz K1
• no a real feature, but many female-type Common Redstarts have a paler loral area, giving the bird an open faced look (enhanced by the dark eye stands out more against a paler head than in Black Redstart). Yes, the word blaze would be too much, but if present, this much more subdued in Black Redstart.

 

[traceyj]

Alexander - thank you again for your insight. With the input from yourself, Xenospiza and John - we will go with this Common Redstart (possibly with a slight personality disorder as in it's behaviour (!) or even a Hybrid bird that we would never be able to prove). I very much appreciate all of your patience and help in trying to solve this mystery bird.

 

[KenM]

traceyj hi,

fwiw, here’s a Common Redstart that graced the portals of Canary Wharf for several days early October ‘19 (a touch late by their standards) and certainly pointed me initially down the EBR road.
However wiser counsels referred me to CRdstrt.
I’ve never found CR or BR to be confiding, that said the one and only EBR that I have seen certainly was!

You might agree, it doesn’t look too dissimilar to your bird and like yours, might be construed as confusing.
Behaviourally it fell between two stools…not confiding and yet not totally shy.
Although I accepted it as CR, such was it’s behaviour compared to the few others that I’ve had on site and elsewhere, that I’m still not entirely convinced with the ID, as all the others fell within the Aug-Sep time frame and unlike the others…almost confiding.

Cheers

 

[traceyj]

traceyj hi,

fwiw, here’s a Common Redstart that graced the portals of Canary Wharf for several days early October ‘19 (a touch late by their standards) and certainly pointed me initially down the EBR road.
However wiser counsels referred me to CRdstrt.
I’ve never found CR or BR to be confiding, that said the one and only EBR that I have seen certainly was!

You might agree, it doesn’t look too dissimilar to your bird and like yours, might be construed as confusing.
Behaviourally it fell between two stools…not confiding and yet not totally shy.
Although I accepted it as CR, such was it’s behaviour compared to the few others that I’ve had on site and elsewhere, that I’m still not entirely convinced with the ID, as all the others fell within the Aug-Sep time frame and unlike the others…almost confiding.

Cheers

Hi Ken - thank you for sharing your experience - by the looks of things, we have been going through exactly the same process as you went through - plus you are right - your bird and ours look very similar. Ours was seen on the 26th Oct - it was in the same area as the Black Redstarts BUT this female bird would have nothing to do with Male Black Redstart which took quite a shine to her. One of the birders saw her loosely associate with a small flock of linnets an 2 Mipits in a chalk car park when she was surprised by a female Kestrel, the Linnets and Mipits flew into the nearby scrub but the EBR/CR chose to fly right across the field closely pursued by the Kestrel risking life and limb to get to the brick building and diving inside. It then appeared at the window and on the roof once all was clear. Individuals who have seen the bird in the flesh have all stated that she looks like a Common Redstart BUT habitat, not being bothered about humans, the timing of the bird as in being present back end of Oct and still present now and in absolutely no hurry to move off to the next destination all point to a totally different bird - hence us going down either the EBR or Hybrid route. I suppose the only way to be 100% sure is the trap the bird which is extremely hard to do as she has based herself the the top of Culver Down which is National Trust land and in any case - I think we would all feel very uncomfortable to put such a small bird through such a potential trauma just so that we can get an answer to our question. The other option is the DNA route, but the likelihood of us successfully being able to get a small sample of her poo or managing to find a feather is extremely difficult. So all in all I think we will have to accept the Common Redstart ID even though all of us still question whether this is entirely right. I think we just have to accept that at the end of the day, the evidence we have managed to obtain is just not sufficient and to ID this bird on a gut feel sadly will not cut the mustard!

 

[KenM]

Tracey hi,

The behaviour you described by your bird somehow seems to defy “aberrance”.
Clearly a migrant bird from who knows where, a fascinating account making a bloody good read!
many thanks for sharing.

Cheers 👍

 

[dantheman]

Common Redstarts in the east of the range exhibit different behaviour/habitat preference to our British birds iirc??

Common Redstarts in Kasbegi, Georgia were commonly flitting around the village and on roofs iirc

 

[KenM]

Common Redstarts in the east of the range exhibit different behaviour/habitat preference to our British birds iirc??

Common Redstarts in Kasbegi, Georgia were commonly flitting around the village and on roofs iirc

Have to assume that the mtdna “thingy” sequencing is the same as our nominate?

 

[dantheman]

Have to assume that the mtdna “thingy” sequencing is the same as our nominate?

No idea (I forgot to check at the time lol).


I don't know if samamisicus can be determined in females, or in these photographs, or whether others have experienced this behaviour change in this subspecies, or it occurs in the nominate as you move towards the east of the range.

But certainly if the behaviour is at least a bit consistent (have others noted this?) then it could explain the bird - any Common Redstart in October 'likely' to have travelled from the east ...

 

[KenM]

My comment albeit somewhat obscure and tongue in cheek hence “thingy”, was referring to Pom and Grt.Skua sharing the “same” sequencing.
Implying that it seems to work for most….but not all.
Would be great if they could get a sample tho.👍

 

[traceyj]

No idea (I forgot to check at the time lol).


I don't know if samamisicus can be determined in females, or in these photographs, or whether others have experienced this behaviour change in this subspecies, or it occurs in the nominate as you move towards the east of the range.

But certainly if the behaviour is at least a bit consistent (have others noted this?) then it could explain the bird - any Common Redstart in October 'likely' to have travelled from the east ...

That is an interesting thought - I have just located this article from British Birds. Sadly it only focuses on Males.....https://britishbirds.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/article_files/V102/V102_N02/V102_N2_34_47.pdf