gulls (4 Viewers)

[michael23]

Hi everyone, just wanted to share these images on here, which jan and a few others id'd for me over on surfbirds.
Photographed November 15th 2009 in staunton harold, leicestershire

http://s692.photobucket.com/albums/vv283/michael23_photo/Larus Sp/

 

[tittletattler]

Hi Tittletattler,yes 4th and 5th calendar year gulls have dark markings on the bill and indeed some adults also regardless of how old.The gull in my pic showed absolutely no signs of immaturity plumage wise.The really striking thing was its short-legged/long-winged appearance as well as its really diminutive size.

cheers,S

Hi Snowcap,

A lot of the birds that winter here in dartford can seem rather small and could be described in exactly the same way as you have described your bird. Some also show white tips to P10 which I highlighted in this thread some while ago. Whilst digging out the pics in my last post, I found another YLG with a white tipped P10. It's standing behind the 2nd winter bird in the attached image. Odd. Makes me think "where do these birds come from?".

Cheers,

Andy.

 

[Cristian Mihai]

Hi Cristian.

Nice images again (and elswhere if you see what I mean).

Regarding the gulls in post 1062 - I see
1. cachinnans - note primary pattern.
2. chachinnans - same as nr 1, p9 is hidden behind p10.
3. chachinnans - primarily the primary pattern
4. michahellis - underwing pattern + bill size/shape. Tailband looks broad.
5. chachinnans - primary pattern

JanJ

Thank you for comments JanJ.
I will soon upload some pics taken today, Sunday 22nd. I took pics with: 2 adults Caspian Gulls, 2 or 3 1cy Yellow-legged Gulls, a 2cy Yellow-legged Gull, an adult Yellow-legged and a possible 2cy Caspian Gull.

 

[username]

And that's being generous....

Out of interest, why would anyone think, after much discussion, that this bird is in any way a Caspian?

Cheers,

Andy.

Because many folk aren't that familiar...and are still learning about gull ID Tittletattler! It is rather a specialist subject to many...and one with many pitfalls.....as i am sure many experts would agree. I personally do not like photo ID..[in many cases]...as appearances can often be deceptive...and i have the utmost admiration for those....[like those specialist folk's on BF]...who do such a good job on ID....

ps...thank you JanJ for your comments and links...appreciated:t:

 

[Cristian Mihai]

Two birds: 1cy michahellis & 2cy cachinnans. Pics taken on November 22nd, near Bucharest.

 

[Cristian Mihai]

A 2cy michahellis (for comparison with the 2cy cachinnans from the post above).

 

[tittletattler]

Because many folk aren't that familiar...and are still learning about gull ID Tittletattler! It is rather a specialist subject to many...and one with many pitfalls.....as i am sure many experts would agree. I personally do not like photo ID..[in many cases]...as appearances can often be deceptive...and i have the utmost admiration for those....[like those specialist folk's on BF]...who do such a good job on ID....

ps...thank you JanJ for your comments and links...appreciated:t:

Fair enough, Username. I fall for many of the pitfalls myself.

The bird in question appears to have very little leg above the knee. Caspian should also look higher chested (think of Katie Price) rather than flatter chested and deeper bellied such as this bird (and like many of us middle aged birders).

 

[davidearlgray]

Fair enough, Username. I fall for many of the pitfalls myself.

The bird in question appears to have very little leg above the knee. Caspian should also look higher chested (think of Katie Price) rather than flatter chested and deeper bellied such as this bird (and like many of us middle aged birders).

Andy, I took the photo at a very difficult angle so there maybe a bit of forshortening on the legs!
Hope this helps?
Cheers,
Dave.:t:

 

[username]

Fair enough, Username. I fall for many of the pitfalls myself.

The bird in question appears to have very little leg above the knee. Caspian should also look higher chested (think of Katie Price) rather than flatter chested and deeper bellied such as this bird (and like many of us middle aged birders).

No worries TT..! I agree about 'apparent' leg length. Trouble is...with limited pics..it does always amaze me how different shots/different angles/lighting etc...affect the 'impression'. I find there's never any substitute for in field observations...to get the most complete 'picture'!

ps...interesting 'effects' [on the Q and A thread] of Leicestershire larus...whatever it is!

pps....i'd rather not think of Katie Price...i don't like 'plastic' birds of any description....

 

[lou salomon]

Hi Snowcap,
Some also show white tips to P10 which I highlighted in this thread some while ago. Whilst digging out the pics in my last post, I found another YLG with a white tipped P10. It's standing behind the 2nd winter bird in the attached image. Odd. Makes me think "where do these birds come from?".

Cheers,

Andy.

andy, all white p10 tips are not rare in YLG, they occure in either western and eastern populations of michahellis. att. 2 pics of black sea birds.

 

[Cristian Mihai]

A Caspian wing tip. Another pic with the same bird here:
http://www.birdforum.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/280480/ppuser/54311

 

[tittletattler]

andy, all white p10 tips are not rare in YLG, they occure in either western and eastern populations of michahellis. att. 2 pics of black sea birds.

Thanks Lou and Cristian.

From underneath those birds look very similar!

 

[lou salomon]

the main difference is the long white tongue to p10 in caspian, andy.

adult YLG has an underside to p10 that varies between all black to having a tongue that reaches to maximum(?) half the length of the visible part p10 - like seen in the 2nd pic, post 1090.

adult caspian has a tongue varies from about half the visible length to almost connecting with tha large mirror, in some cases even being connected with it, leaving very little black on ventral side to p10. see cristian's pic. from the upperside the grey tongues in caspian often are not visible thus resulting in a similar look like YLG: http://lou.bertalan.de/birds/pic/hi/up_0247.jpg

 

[snowcap]

Hi folks, anyone care to comment on the pics in post #1076...JanJ,Lou??

 

[Cristian Mihai]

Thanks Lou and Cristian.

From underneath those birds look very similar!

Hi tittletattler,
I wouldn't agree with you. For the Yellow-legged Gulls the underneath tip pattern have significant more black. This is the most visible feature when you look at the flying birds. For comparison with the bird from post #1091 see the Yellow-legged Gull from the pic attached here. On p10 the Caspian has a white tip with the same length as the black segment on p10. On the other hand, as you can see in the pic attached, the white tip for the Yellow-legged has less than half of the length of the black segment.

 

[lou salomon]

Hi folks, anyone care to comment on the pics in post #1076...JanJ,Lou??

hi snowcap,

sorry, sure i saw your bird but didn't take the time to examine it closely. and of course it is not at all easy with these taxa in the middle east. steppe gull occures in israel but i think it's scarce. surely the mirror on p10 looks small and placed more inwards than in YLG so i guess barabensis or a female armenian with pale eyes, weak gonys and restricted dark subterminal on bill are the contenders. something feels wrong for barabensis in this bird. was it really so much red on upper mandible? somehow that red mark on both mandibles looks like a substitute of the black subterminal in winter patterned armenian bill.

 

[snowcap]

Hi Lou, thanks for your comments.Out of the many perplexing Gulls seen in Israel during 2008, this one doesn`t seem to fit anything.All the Armenian Gulls at this time were in obvious wing moult unlike this bird.It really did have that smudge of red extending upwards from the gonys onto the upper mandible.I saw a few Armenian Gulls with paler eyes than normal but the iris on this bird was paler still.It also had much thinner legs than Armenian and the mantle tone was noticeably paler,difficult to discern from this pic.
All very educational!!

 

[lou salomon]

then it's one of the oddies - if mantle was paler than armenian...steppe should at least be the same shade. and of course, more upright stance (usually). but i can't explain that extended red on bill and head striaton which looks at odds for barabensis. certainly not a michahellis! thanks for sharing these. same goes for your odd "ring-bill" YLG which i don't necessarily associate with 'lusitanicus'.

 

[tittletattler]

the main difference is the long white tongue to p10 in caspian, andy.

http://lou.bertalan.de/birds/pic/hi/up_0247.jpg

Hi Lou & Cristian,

Thanks - on closer inspection that seems more obvious. It helped when I flipped the 2nd image in 1090 and compared it side by side with Cristian's Caspian then it was really obvious.

Cheers,

Andy.

 

[tittletattler]

Hi tittletattler,
For comparison with the bird from post #1091 see the Yellow-legged Gull from the pic attached here. .

And on this bird it is even more obvious IMO. The 2nd bird in 1090 seems to have a little less black in the primaries perhaps especially so in the inner web of P10? But even so, markedly different to Caspian like you say.