gulls (1 Viewer)

[lou salomon]

Cristians gull in image 1, 2 and 3 - post 687 looks like a michahellis. This is revealed by the much worn plumage, many second gen. coverts and structure, especially in image 3.

it has the structure and size of a male bird. a michahellis with such a typical cachinnans bill??? maybe.

I also see the left gull in image 2 as michahellis, but not entierly sure.

agreed, i think plumagewise it looks better for michahellis, one of those with dull dark grey scaps (later moulted?) - but if michahellis: see how upright it looks and high breasted - well, it is hunched probably due to minus temperatures...

I agree Lou, that your Stuttgart gull doesn´t make it all the way. The pattern on the wing looks alright, greater covert pattern but there seems to be a tendency for the inner primaries to be on the pale side, creating a Herring Gull like contrast, even if they seem to have the Caspian dark outer and pale inner web pattern. Tail band a little on the broad side for Caspian. The bill looks heavier at the tip and structure when on the water reminds of Herring. So might perhaps be a hybrid? Anyway, not the typical Caspian feel!

Cheek these Caspians from Spain.

http://www.larusfuscus.blogspot.com/

JanJ

now this sounds like a noble way to express that you feel it is a herring gull, right? i could reply with the same phrase: it doesn't make it all the way to herring gull.o
- there is not only the gr. covert pattern but bill is long and not too tip heavy in my opinion, the tail had additional narrow wave bands an the sides towards tail base, definitely dark outer webs in the 'window', tertial pattern is almost michahellis like with a narrow pale border reaching only to the middle of the outermost tertial and in flight it gave the impression of a large, elegant bird (but i may be wrong in this).
- on the other heand of course many things obviously seem wrong. i'm really sorry i couldn't manage to take better pics of this interesting bird but for me it certainly has features of both caspian and herring gull.

i'd like to hear more opinions about it.

some links to birds with similar features, all ided as caspians (i know this is not the way to clinch an id on a single ind., just to show some variation) -

talking about broad tailband and strong uppertail pattern:

26.7.2004 espoo http://www.bongariliitto.fi/kuvat/1...t/larcac_20040726_espoo_linaj/Ammass-7424.jpg

11.10.2005 nokia
http://www.bongariliitto.fi/kuvat/11_Rantalinnut/11h_Lokit/larcac_20051011_nokia_kosha/IMG_3327.jpg

same bird http://www.bongariliitto.fi/kuvat/11_Rantalinnut/11h_Lokit/larcac_20051011_nokia_kosha/IMG_3439.jpg
this could be a hybrid with that tail and pale on both webs on inner primaries!

some of these latvian birds have a pretty wide tail band and a lot of dark patches on uppertail though admittedly the contrast between the solid black band and the base is stronger (see birds 2 and 6): http://www.elisanet.fi/hj.koskinen/1cyCachs_Riga2008.html

talking about strong patterning on uppertail – though black band is clear cut contrasting to upper tail the additional narrow waved bands are going well up to the uppertail coverts in this bird (gorgier, swizzerland, 24.1008): http://i.pbase.com/o3/09/645509/1/104965016.jpOy9iW5.IMG_8659.jpg

talking about a heavy bill tip in cachinnans, it sometimes happens (though unusual):

4.07.2006 oulu: http://www.tarsiger.com/images/Bruun/lar_cac_derterius_003.jpg

http://www.tarsiger.com/images/Bruun/lar_cac_derterius_002.jpg (same bird)

http://www.birding.ch/gulls/steppenmoewe/img/2yRapperswil0203033.jpg

strongly patterned (with a lot of head streaking) into february (we could discuss if this really is a caspian but pic is not very good):

http://www.birding.ch/gulls/steppenmoewe/img/2yRomanshorn2202031.jpg

i hope you don't get me wrong. i don't want to turn a bird into a caspian that is not a caspian! just there are many things that are wrong for herring as well.

and attached some of the pics lightened a bit

 

[JANJ]

Hello Lou.

I´m not saying that it is a Herring Gull! Strangely though as it might seem - there is a possibility that it could be. Although the median and greater covert with pale tipping, tertials and tail pattern with uppertail and rump are all pro Caspian. I have seen juvenile/1st winter argentaus before with a similar greater covert and inner primary pattern (Caspian like with dark outer and pale innner web). As it might seem odd to question such pro Caspian features, I have to much Herring feel, that is to say the thick neck together with head shape primary projection (althoug some Caspains doesn´t looks so long-winged) and structure, especially in image 2 above and here:

http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=175771&d=1231334376

...where the proportions favours more a Herring - or the possible hybrid, if you get my point?
In this image:

http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=175773&d=1231334574

note the head shape (and the rather strong barring on the side of the undertail coverts) which is not so Caspian jizz like.

If this was the only image of it

NOTE HERE LOU THAT I FAILED TO LINK THE IMAGE IN QUESTION; BUT IS`S THE ONE IN IMAGE 4 IN POST 691!

I would react to the Caspian like greater covert pattern but suggest Herring on jizz.

As mentioned - I don´t say that it´s a Herring, not a typical one for that matter, but I fail to see a Caspian on the whole.
How was the underwing?

JanJ

 

[lou salomon]

underwing had a pale ground tone but was not at all whitish as should expected in such a well patterned bird. not as plain dark as in most herrings at this age.
i've mailed to ruud and klaus malling for their feel if a hybrid or argentatus.

 

[lou salomon]

NOTE HERE LOU THAT I FAILED TO LINK THE IMAGE IN QUESTION; BUT IS`S THE ONE IN IMAGE 4 IN POST 691!
JanJ

i know which you meant - seeing it alone, one really would think of argentatus! HG was my instant feel seeing the tail in the field also. then i noticed the longish bill, palish underside (not white!) and plain bicoloured gr. covert pattern which led me to the id of a strongly patterned caspian. at home in the pics i noted the dark/pale inner primaries which strengthened my 'theory'.
still, maybe a hybrid or not - we won't know it for sure i guess but i'll bow to greater experience with argentatus if this is your and the other guller's feeling.

 

[Cristian Mihai]

New pics with gulls in my gallery: http://www.birdforum.net/gallery/showgallery.php/cat/500/ppuser/54311

 

[lou salomon]

have a close look at the p10 tips of this recently taken caspian gull (stephane aubry, 5.01.09): http://www.pbase.com/stephaubry/image/107821589

it reveals on each wing some very tiny pale spots in the place, where p10 mirror will appear later, usually in 2nd generation p10. the spectacular thing about it is, that these are 1st generation feathers! never seen that...do you?

 

[lou salomon]

views on the stuttgart gull

i have now received feedback from ruud, klaus-malling and ies on the stuttgart gull discussed in the previous posts (pics in #691, 692 and 701).

basically their view concordantly went more towards cachinnans although one with some odd features.

ruud briefly noted it looks more like a cachinnans than an argentatus but with the mentioned points of concern in the end he concluded: “probably a hybrid”

ies expressed his view that much of it looks like a caspian gull. he mentioned the following pro-cachinanns points: greater covert pattern, tertial pattern, primary window (dark/pale webs), neck streaking, and tail bar in this pic: http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=176118&d=1231501768 looking typical for caspian just with “many dark markings on the uppertail coverts and rump”.
points of concern: bill shape, scapular pattern (both not very well visible in these pics), build and head shape.
ies said it is hard to come to a definite conclusion from these pics alone but it mostly looks like a strong male cachinnans. (thank you, ies! )

klaus said that even the bird showed a rather heavy bill and shorter wings than expected he sees mostly cachinnans characters in it. a little unusual in his view is the heavy blotching on hindneck (perhaps some argentatus influence) and especially the heavily marked sides of undertail. Wing pattern is spot on for cachinnans and tail pattern not unusual with the strong waving.
Conclusion: “given these small anomalities it is not possible to be 100% certain, but
most characters fits cachinnans.”

what a pity I couldn’t get better pics of this interesting bird….B

 

[lou salomon]

david and goliath

baltic and GBBG: http://www.tarsiger.com/images/hytpe/larfus_10.1.09_AS3.JPG
not only is it pretty small (see it beside 2 HG) but it also has very white underside of wings: http://www.tarsiger.com/images/hytpe/larfus_10.1.09_AS5.JPG

 

[Cristian Mihai]

An adult Yellow-legged. Pics taken on January 14th in Bucharest.

 

[Cristian Mihai]

And a 2cy (dark type).

 

[Cristian Mihai]

This one seems to be a 3cy-4cy.

 

[lou salomon]

hi cristian,

tineretului park? (just for labelling )

the 2cy behind the adult (pis 1-3) has a rather plain GC (greater covert) pattern resembling a bit caspian gull, but it is a YLG.

2nd bird (pics 4-8) has moulted its 1-2 inner GC

3rd bird (pics 9-10) is a 4cy type, small white p-tips but otherwise pretty adult like except some dark markings on tertials and GC and a solid subterminal mark on bill.

 

[Cristian Mihai]

hi cristian,

tineretului park? (just for labelling )

the 2cy behind the adult (pis 1-3) has a rather plain GC (greater covert) pattern resembling a bit caspian gull, but it is a YLG.

2nd bird (pics 4-8) has moulted its 1-2 inner GC

3rd bird (pics 9-10) is a 4cy type, small white p-tips but otherwise pretty adult like except some dark markings on tertials and GC and a solid subterminal mark on bill.

Yes, Tineretului. Unfortunately it was a cloudy day (some rain also!)

Here is a (let's say) better view of the 2cy gull from pics 1-3. I agree with you: it is a YL. BTW, I didn't see any Caspian...
Today I saw hundreds of gulls (mainly ridibundus, but also canus and michahellis/cachinnans) on Colentina river, near Chitila Forest. I'll post some pics later, but don't expect too much - they were far away.

 

[Cristian Mihai]

Some pics taken on Jan 15th. See also: http://www.birdforum.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/230809/ppuser/54311

 

[lou salomon]

i can imagine how many birds are starving at the moment. have you ever been to glina? probably impossible to get into/close to the dump (groapa de gunoi)?

 

[Cristian Mihai]

No, I wasn't. I'll try to go there...
There are so many birds in this area because all the lakes and rivers in/around Bucharest are frozen. In this area the river Colentina has a low level (the upstream dam is almost close), so the speed of the water is relative high and for this reason here the river it isn't frozen. There are around 100 herons (great egrets and grey herons) and many hudreds of gulls here (I would say that 80% are Black-headed Gulls and 20% are Common, Yellow-legged and (maybe) Caspian Gulls).

 

[Cristian Mihai]

What about the age for this one (sorry for the quality - wrong settings)? Pics taken today, January 16th.

 

[lou salomon]

looks like a 3rd winter to me (4cy now). pretty large p10 mirrors but small primary tips. some are more advanced at this age, showing less brownish coverts and no traces of black in tail anymore - variable. as you see bare parts colour is retarded, compare with the one in #711. usually YLG developes paler iris in 2cy, and it really gets whitish in 3cy spring.

 

[lou salomon]

aging mistake on gull-research

hi,

to my eyes this is an advanced 1cy YLG, not retarded 2cy! :

http://www.gull-research.org/ylg1cy2cy/2cyoct/micha5429.htm

what's your views?

 

[Ies Meulmeester]

hi,

to my eyes this is an advanced 1cy YLG, not retarded 2cy! :

http://www.gull-research.org/ylg1cy2cy/2cyoct/micha5429.htm

what's your views?

You are absolutely right Lou!