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How does a hotspot work on Ebird? (1 Viewer)

To use your oriole example - what do you lose by using a hotspot? You haven't explained it?
Firstly, there basically are no hotspots in Halmahera. But let's say I use "Foli old logging road" or whatever it's called. That extends for more than 10 kms before it becomes very overgrown, and eventually (I understand) reaches the south coast. The birds are subtly different along it (I've not gone more than about 10 kms), with different habitats at intervals. So if I substitute that "hotspot" for the actual location I lose valuable information—what the habitat was like where I made the sighting. In this particular (hypothetical) example, since it's a scuba diving holiday and I'm on the coast the sighting becomes "dangerously" imprecise. Why do any of that? Instead, let's just keep the coordinates of the location where I actually did make the observation (why on earth wouldn't we?)

Forcing you to assign a hotspot is like GB Ordnance Survey's points of interest dataset where they forced actual locations on to a grid so that coordinates were always at grid intersection points (I've not checked if these data are still available). This was a very effective way of hiding the very points of interest the dataset was designed to expose. It also made any form geospatial analysis +/- meaningless since you were comparing one set of incorrect locations with another.
Also, not all checklists have GPS data - only those submitted on the mobile app. Even among those that do, a single point is needed for viewing the maps.
I noted that track-less lists are the only ones where it makes sense for ebird to ask where you "are" at point of list submission.

Actually, I think it's quite likely one could construct an "artificial" track and submit that. The underlying database model isn't complicated. I've not experimented, but I will. Why would one want to do this?

...Well, perhaps you have an old checklist (or even a new one) where you didn't record the trace for whatever reason, but you know the route you followed. Such is the case for nearly all checklists prior to about 2004... ...Well then you might well wish to construct a track which follows your route. Using start and end time information, you could divide the route into equal segments and that becomes your "trace". Obviously, the information about precisely where you were at any moment will be wrong. But since it's ebird and we have no information about where each sighting occurred it doesn't matter ! And it provides more info than just a "bald" point. We now know more than the simple statements of "time taken" and "distance travelled" give us. We can work out what habitats you're likely to have passed through, for example, what altitude you traversed.

(Note that if we treated trips and sightings as the logically distinct things they are, and treated them appropriately, the artificial nature of the track wouldn't matter either. It would mean details of the track were wrong (duration along a given portion) but locations of sightings (recorded separately) would be correct.)

Even among those that do, a single point is needed for viewing the maps.
Yes but where there's a trace, ebird can work it out for you—it could just use the centroid, for example. It doesn't have to ask, and there's no sense in forcing you to assign a "hotspot" (see above; it's like forcing you to use the OS PoI grid—it's ambiguating away the actual location)

It is actually possible to assign a wholly inappropriate hotspot. Sometimes this could happen cryptically. So for example, let's say I'm trying to assign a village weaver sighting and I'm in Kenya. I could assign it to completely the wrong hotspot in completely the wrong part of the country ! Since this species is widespread, it's quite likely ebird wouldn't flag it as unusual. So hotspot assignment has turned a good record into a bad one.

(I actually did this temporarily on a recent trip when wifi issues meant ebird was refusing to show a sensible list of possibles. By assigning a wrong hotspot I was able to submit a list which I could then correct later.)
 
Firstly, there basically are no hotspots in Halmahera. But let's say I use "Foli old logging road" or whatever it's called. That extends for more than 10 kms before it becomes very overgrown, and eventually (I understand) reaches the south coast. The birds are subtly different along it (I've not gone more than about 10 kms), with different habitats at intervals. So if I substitute that "hotspot" for the actual location I lose valuable information—what the habitat was like where I made the sighting. In this particular (hypothetical) example, since it's a scuba diving holiday and I'm on the coast the sighting becomes "dangerously" imprecise. Why do any of that? Instead, let's just keep the coordinates of the location where I actually did make the observation (why on earth wouldn't we?)
I should note, eBird doesn't even use incidental observations in it's scientific products, so this whole discussion may be moot.
Second, eBird only wants you using a hotspot if the hotspot accurately describes where you are birding. If there isn't such a hotspot, you are supposed to create your own location.
 
I should note, eBird doesn't even use incidental observations in it's scientific products, so this whole discussion may be moot.
Second, eBird only wants you using a hotspot if the hotspot accurately describes where you are birding. If there isn't such a hotspot, you are supposed to create your own location.
...Well that's fine. I'd certainly use incidentals if I were interested in the extent of a given species' range (which I am).
if the hotspot accurately describes where you are birding
Who knows. First I guess I'd have to "commonly understand" the extent of the hotspot. Perhaps I could use runes or tarot to determine this (a coin flip?)
 
(For unknown, unfathomable and entirely spurious reasons, ebird forces you to assign a location before you submit all lists. (Why is unfathomable etc? because if it's tracking your GPS it knows exactly where you went. It makes sense to ask you if you switched tracking off but not in any other case. 'Ahh, but it needs to know whether your checklist pertains to a "hotspot" ' you cry. "Only if it's not properly recording hotspots" I reply—if it were it'd just use a geoquery to see if your track and its hotspot intersect.)
Last time I checked (about a minute ago) I was allowed to click in a map and ebird would take that location, with its coordinates. And now I just did it again a few hundreds away from my actual location, can you see the screencapt of my phone?
I can actually select any location within a hotspot area (like 1 mm away or less from the hotspot pointer) without any issues, not being forced to use the hotspot location. Nothing ia pushing me to use the hotspot.
I am starting to think you are critizishing ebird without really knowing it.
 

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Last time I checked (about a minute ago) I was allowed to click in a map and ebird would take that location, with its coordinates. And now I just did it again a few hundreds away from my actual location, can you see the screencapt of my phone?
I can actually select any location within a hotspot area (like 1 mm away or less from the hotspot pointer) without any issues, not being forced to use the hotspot location. Nothing ia pushing me to use the hotspot.
I am starting to think you are critizishing ebird without really knowing it.
I have been reading this thread over the last few days and as a user of eBird, Obs and Birdtrack (and the resulting data from them) I think I agree. There are a lot of categorical statements being made that for users of the systems make little sense.

I travel widely around the globe and the data I find from eBird to be easy to find, generally up to date and dependent upon the user. But it is data - not information. Simple analytics are needed and the more complicated I will leave to Cornell and others. Some places are well watched, some are not, some are accurate, some are not.

From my perspective each of the systems have plus points and none of them are perfect. The volume of inputs on eBird make it the clear winner in a global sense. Nearly 1m inputters and 83.5 m checklists (complete ones) means that no other platform comes close.

As mentioned (not by me) the problem with these citizen science platforms are the citizens. People find ways of ignoring the guidance, the prompts and the suggestions and these 'exceptions' can confuse those who have taken it upon themselves to validate and 'quarantine' any records that seem odd. (by the way reviewers cant remove records, edit them or 'correct' them). There is no comparison with what was there before - welcome to the big data age
 
Last time I checked (about a minute ago) I was allowed to click in a map and ebird would take that location, with its coordinates. And now I just did it again a few hundreds away from my actual location, can you see the screencapt of my phone?
I can actually select any location within a hotspot area (like 1 mm away or less from the hotspot pointer) without any issues, not being forced to use the hotspot location. Nothing ia pushing me to use the hotspot.
I am starting to think you are critizishing ebird without really knowing it.
Sorry I don't really understand what you're saying here. If you have an incidental record (which by definition refers to a single point location), and assign it to a hotspot, then you should find that the checklist on the website now has the representative coordinates for the "hotspot" point and not the place where you were.

This is the behaviour I found last time I investigated this. Ebird changes all the time. If it's now not the case that they substitute the "hotspot" location for your location then this is a good thing. It doesn't apply in the same way if you're talking about a trip as the summary location for the checklist doesn't matter—you have the underlying GPS trace which is the important thing. If they choose to summarise that trace as the hotspot location that's up to them.

Edit: Sorry just re-read your post. No you're not forced to use a local hotspot location for an incidental. And you shouldn't. That's my point. If you do, it'll substitute the hotspot location for your actual location. That may be many '00s of m away.
 
Last time I checked (about a minute ago) I was allowed to click in a map and ebird would take that location, with its coordinates. And now I just did it again a few hundreds away from my actual location, can you see the screencapt of my phone?
I can actually select any location within a hotspot area (like 1 mm away or less from the hotspot pointer) without any issues, not being forced to use the hotspot location. Nothing ia pushing me to use the hotspot.
I am starting to think you are critizishing ebird without really knowing it.
Yes: this is my point. Do not assign the record to the nearest hotspot or else its true location will be lost. Use your actual location.
 
Last time I checked (about a minute ago) I was allowed to click in a map and ebird would take that location, with its coordinates. And now I just did it again a few hundreds away from my actual location, can you see the screencapt of my phone?
I can actually select any location within a hotspot area (like 1 mm away or less from the hotspot pointer) without any issues, not being forced to use the hotspot location. Nothing ia pushing me to use the hotspot.
I am starting to think you are critizishing ebird without really knowing it.
Sorry (third time): my post is pointing out that ebird forces you to assign some location [no it doesn't have to be a hotspot]. It could do this by itself. It doesn't need to ask you: it knows where you are and where you've been. This is pointless, slows things down (the app spends time searching for web access so it can get a list of nearby locations).
 
Firstly, there basically are no hotspots in Halmahera. But let's say I use "Foli old logging road" or whatever it's called. That extends for more than 10 kms before it becomes very overgrown, and eventually (I understand) reaches the south coast. The birds are subtly different along it (I've not gone more than about 10 kms), with different habitats at intervals. So if I substitute that "hotspot" for the actual location I lose valuable information—what the habitat was like where I made the sighting. In this particular (hypothetical) example, since it's a scuba diving holiday and I'm on the coast the sighting becomes "dangerously" imprecise. Why do any of that? Instead, let's just keep the coordinates of the location where I actually did make the observation (why on earth wouldn't we?)

Forcing you to assign a hotspot is like GB Ordnance Survey's points of interest dataset where they forced actual locations on to a grid so that coordinates were always at grid intersection points (I've not checked if these data are still available). This was a very effective way of hiding the very points of interest the dataset was designed to expose. It also made any form geospatial analysis +/- meaningless since you were comparing one set of incorrect locations with another.

I noted that track-less lists are the only ones where it makes sense for ebird to ask where you "are" at point of list submission.

Actually, I think it's quite likely one could construct an "artificial" track and submit that. The underlying database model isn't complicated. I've not experimented, but I will. Why would one want to do this?

...Well, perhaps you have an old checklist (or even a new one) where you didn't record the trace for whatever reason, but you know the route you followed. Such is the case for nearly all checklists prior to about 2004... ...Well then you might well wish to construct a track which follows your route. Using start and end time information, you could divide the route into equal segments and that becomes your "trace". Obviously, the information about precisely where you were at any moment will be wrong. But since it's ebird and we have no information about where each sighting occurred it doesn't matter ! And it provides more info than just a "bald" point. We now know more than the simple statements of "time taken" and "distance travelled" give us. We can work out what habitats you're likely to have passed through, for example, what altitude you traversed.

(Note that if we treated trips and sightings as the logically distinct things they are, and treated them appropriately, the artificial nature of the track wouldn't matter either. It would mean details of the track were wrong (duration along a given portion) but locations of sightings (recorded separately) would be correct.)


Yes but where there's a trace, ebird can work it out for you—it could just use the centroid, for example. It doesn't have to ask, and there's no sense in forcing you to assign a "hotspot" (see above; it's like forcing you to use the OS PoI grid—it's ambiguating away the actual location)

It is actually possible to assign a wholly inappropriate hotspot. Sometimes this could happen cryptically. So for example, let's say I'm trying to assign a village weaver sighting and I'm in Kenya. I could assign it to completely the wrong hotspot in completely the wrong part of the country ! Since this species is widespread, it's quite likely ebird wouldn't flag it as unusual. So hotspot assignment has turned a good record into a bad one.

(I actually did this temporarily on a recent trip when wifi issues meant ebird was refusing to show a sensible list of possibles. By assigning a wrong hotspot I was able to submit a list which I could then correct later.)
Have you ever used a GIS? Constructing a map of where you went would be a pain and ultimately a waste of time, as working with manual mapping tech often is. And it doesn't solve the problem of needing a point to appear on the species maps.
 
Have you ever used a GIS?
All the time, lots of different ones as well as various geo libraries and spatial databases
Constructing a map of where you went would be a pain and ultimately a waste of time, as working with manual mapping tech often is.
Not a waste for me. I like to be able to visualise these things, do my own geospatial analysis. See my route in relation to other things on various types of map. Depending, geometry may already exist and it may be possible to program or automate the construction
And it doesn't solve the problem of needing a point to appear on the species maps.
Why do you need that? If you mean to map species distributions there's loads of ways to do it, from surfaces (e.g. modelled probability of encounter), kernel density etc, through various thematically coloured grids (ebird uses this at coarse resolutions or for suppressed species), to isoclines or "blob" maps.

If you must summarise a trip to a representative point there's literally an infinity of ways to do this, from the centre of a bounding rectangle to the mid-point of the path to some form of weighted centroid (infinitely many different centroids---centre of a minimum bounding triangle, centre of minimum binding circle etc etc) to...
 
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All the time, lots of different ones as well as various geo libraries and spatial databases

Not a waste for me. I like to be able to visualise these things, do my own geospatial analysis. See my route in relation to other things on various types of map. Depending, geometry may already exist and it may be possible to program or automate the construction

Why do you need that? If you mean to map species distributions there's loads of ways to do it, from surfaces (e.g. modelled probability of encounter), kernel density etc, through various thematically coloured grids (ebird uses this at coarse resolutions or for suppressed species), to isoclines or "blob" maps.

If you must summarise a trip to a representative point there's literally an infinity of ways to do this, from the centre of a bounding rectangle to the mid-point of the path to some form of weighted centroid (infinitely many different centroids---centre of a minimum bounding triangle, centre of minimum binding circle etc etc) to...
The map would be a lot to look at, with all those lines and polygons cluttering up the whole thing.

So it's the opposite problem then - someone super familiar with GIS forgets how difficult they are to work with and look at to the person who isn't trained for them - therefore rendering the data difficult for a different reason.
 
The map would be a lot to look at, with all those lines and polygons cluttering up the whole thing.

So it's the opposite problem then - someone super familiar with GIS forgets how difficult they are to work with and look at to the person who isn't trained for them - therefore rendering the data difficult for a different reason.
Sorry don't understand a word of this. What lines and polygons are you talking about?

The stuff about "super familiar" suggests you didn't follow my last post (we'll leave aside the ad hominem aspect; hope you will too...).

Broadly speaking, one wants the underlying data to be as detailed as possible. How you then choose to summarise and present those data is an entirely different thing. I mentioned some different approaches but I'm not overly critical of how ebird does things now. (Perhaps I would like the species maps to be a bit more informative.)

If I were doing academic research using ebird I'd be keen to use the underlying GPS traces for the reasons I've explained---they contain valuable info you can use to correct bias in the data or understand it better. I don't know if that's possible for privacy reasons
 
I just don't get it. Ornitho.ch uses hotspots, too, but much smaller ones. And if you cannot navigate on 1 km square, how can you navigate better in a much larger area? And in ornitho.ch, the squares are overlaid automatically with the extremely detailed map showing tiniest details - where the problem is? That is why I generally think that precise observation points are the best.

Heya I never responded to this, but 1x1km resolution is pretty lousy if you aren't already familiar with an area. It's the same issue in eBird, no doubt, but I stumble into far more issues trying to figure out where something actually is in ornitho than eBird. Here's an example, I know there's a Ruddy Turnstone on Lake Zürich near Wollishofen. I will be over that way later today anyways so wanted to see when and where it was last reported. Both eBird and Ornitho confirmed for me that the last report was last night. All good. In this case it's pretty common sense where the bird will have to be as it's a wader and habitat is not extensive just there. But attached are what I see in eBird vs Ornitho. I realize that if there were a HotSpot for Wollishofen in eBird the situation might be the same. But in ornitho you so frequently just get the middle of the 1x1km square or some useless point that isn't even where people go birding there...
 

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