Hyphens, again... (4 Viewers)

[fugl]

D'oh, (I think) I knew what I meant... :-O

B

PS. Presumably Pygmy-Tyrants oppress small people, whereas Pygmy Tyrants are just small oppressors.

PPS. ...and non-Pygmy-Tyrants oppress medium and large people.

Beautiful. You've said it all!

 

[Richard Klim]

and also, I would think, because Ground(-)Dove is used for various members of Gallicolumba/Alopecoenas as well

But irrespective of the Scaled/Inca Doves problem, AOU would assert that the extralimital genera/species should be named Ground Doves rather than Ground-Doves. However, in the spirit of using AOU-style names, Cornell treats them all as Ground-Doves.

cf Tachornis Palm-Swifts, with extralimital Cypsiurus conveniently assumed by AOU to be Palm Swifts. (Cypsiurus represents a monophyletic group, but New World species take precedence when allocating hyphens!) Cornell treats both as Palm-Swifts, contra AOU policy.

 

[Richard Klim]

Ground-Dove

AOU-SACC Proposal #530 (Remsen, Jun 2012): Remove hyphens from "Ground-Dove".

Proposal #530 passed, 7 Aug 2012: RECENT CHANGES.

 

[fugl]

Proposal #530 passed, 7 Aug 2012: RECENT CHANGES.

Thank God, closure at last!

 

[Farnboro John]

For me, this all went south after Richard said "I still don't see why vernacular names must be manipulated".

The reason being that these insular scientists are not manipulating vernacular names. Vernacular names will continue as before, modified only by the vagaries of language and cultural change. Only in the dreaming spires will anyone believe matters of moment are occurring.

As evidence I offer the continuing tendency to hilarity evoked by mention in Britain of "Bearded Reedlings". Everyone I know still speaks of Bearded Tits (without hyphens, of course!)

Some of these people should get out more.

John

 

[njlarsen]

For me, this all went south after Richard said "I still don't see why vernacular names must be manipulated".

The reason being that these insular scientists are not manipulating vernacular names. Vernacular names will continue as before, modified only by the vagaries of language and cultural change. Only in the dreaming spires will anyone believe matters of moment are occurring.

As evidence I offer the continuing tendency to hilarity evoked by mention in Britain of "Bearded Reedlings". Everyone I know still speaks of Bearded Tits (without hyphens, of course!)

Some of these people should get out more.

John

Vernacular names change when the prevalent field guides change the names they use. In the US, there is a propensity that all field guides are in agreement with AOU, (which seems in the process of becoming SFO) but in Europe (I have most of my knowledge from Denmark a little while back so apologies if that is a special case) every field guide author seemed to have a few pet projects on which names needed changing, and that gave some funny differences!

Niels

 

[Kirk Roth]

Vernacular names change when the prevalent field guides change the names they use. In the US, there is a propensity that all field guides are in agreement with AOU, (which seems in the process of becoming SFO) but in Europe (I have most of my knowledge from Denmark a little while back so apologies if that is a special case) every field guide author seemed to have a few pet projects on which names needed changing, and that gave some funny differences!

Niels

Indeed, in the US, birders do follow name changes with little argument (except in certain punctuated cases - i.e. the Winter/Pacific Wren split). I've birded with lots of folks from all around the country, and the issue of hyphens is usually a big yawner for most - precisely for the reason you state, which is that all of the field guides follow AOU and the birders follow the field guides.

 

[Mysticete]

not to mention that, adding a hyphen does little really to change the name of the birder in communication, it's not that big a deal.

I honestly don't care at all about hyphens...I get the grammar fanatics obsession with them, but it's such a minor issue I never understood the fuss.

 

[Farnboro John]

Vernacular names change when the prevalent field guides change the names they use. In the US, there is a propensity that all field guides are in agreement with AOU, (which seems in the process of becoming SFO) but in Europe (I have most of my knowledge from Denmark a little while back so apologies if that is a special case) every field guide author seemed to have a few pet projects on which names needed changing, and that gave some funny differences!

Niels

So your contention is that the real power lies with the authors and publishers of field guides and not the committees, and in the land of the free those submit to authority while in Europe individuals insist on their individuality. (I am paraphrasing ever so slightly.)

John

 

[Richard Klim]

Pygmy Tyrants

... There are at least seven other problem cases that AOU intends to address, including Pygmy-Tyrant (distributed across six genera, including non-Pygmy-Tyrants), ...

AOU-SACC Proposal #702 (Zimmer, Feb 2016): Change hyphenated group-names within the genera Pseudotriccus, Euscarthmus, Myiornis, Lophotriccus, Oncostoma, Atalotriccus, and Hemitriccus.

 

[mb1848]

"...hard pressed to come up with an appropriate group name for Pseudotriccus"
Sclater erected Caenotriccus for P. ruficeps and P. simplex was named in Caenotriccus. So Scrub Tyrants for the Euscarthmus and Marsh Tyrants for Pseudotriccus. The word caenum is latin for mud mire, caeno is dative and ablative singular. The Spanish word is cienaga. A cienega or cienaga is a spring that is usually a wet, marshy area.
Musicapa (Todirostrum?) ruficeps. Tod. Revue Zoologique 1843 La Fresnay. Todirostrum are called Tody-flycatchers.
http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/item/19446#page/299/mode/1up .
• Pseudotriccus Bec intermediaire entre ceux Myiobius et de Todirostrum. …Platyrhynchinae …Myiobius …Piprides . Pseudotriccus pelzelni Taczanowski & Berlepsch 1885 PZS Pt1 p.88
http://biodiversitylibrary.org/item/97225#page/132/mode/1up .
• Caenotriccus simplex . C. ruficeps dicto affinis… Pseudotriccus simplex (Berlepsch) 1901 J.Orn. 49 p.88
http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/item/104736#page/98/mode/1up .

Caenotriccus Under this term, I propose to isolate the peculiarTodirostrum ruficeps of Lafresnaye, which has been referred to several widely different genera, without receiving an appropriate abiding-place" (P. Sclater 1888)..
• Pseudotriccus Pelzelni Berlepshi Berlepsch Flycatcher. Pseudotriccus pelzelni berlepschi Nelson 1913 Smiths.Misc.Coll. 60 no.21 p.1
http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/page/8910353#page/325/mode/1up .
Pseudotriccus pelzelni annectens (Salvadori & Festa) 1899 Boll.Mus.Zool.Anat.Comp.Torino "15"[=14] no.362 p.12.
Pseudomyobius annectens.
http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/item/43047#page/192/mode/1up .

 

[awiner]

"...hard pressed to come up with an appropriate group name for Pseudotriccus"
Sclater erected Caenotriccus for P. ruficeps and P. simplex was named in Caenotriccus. So Scrub Tyrants for the Euscarthmus and Marsh Tyrants for Pseudotriccus. .

"Scrub Tyrant" seems reasonable (albeit confusable vs. Sublegatus), but neither Pseudotriccus is found in habitat at all resembling a marsh. That seems an unambiguously poor choice of a name.

 

[mb1848]

...neither Pseudotriccus is found in habitat at all resembling a marsh. This appears to be true. I think Sclater used his name because instead of scrub these birds inhabit tropical moist montane forests or humid montane forest, dense cloudforest etc. So how about Cloudforest Tyrant?

 

[njlarsen]

...neither Pseudotriccus is found in habitat at all resembling a marsh. This appears to be true. I think Sclater used his name because instead of scrub these birds inhabit tropical moist montane forests or humid montane forest, dense cloudforest etc. So how about Cloudforest Tyrant?

There is a few other tyrants that utilize cloud forests ...

Niels

 

[delia todd]

There is a few other tyrants that utilize cloud forests ...

Niels

.... or should that be cloud-forests?

 

[thomasdonegan]

Goodness, kapow indeed.

This proposal is extraordinary on so many levels, particularly the bold text: "we have to do something. The status quo violates our own naming conventions concerning the use of hyphenated group-names, and engenders nothing but confusion."

- For a start, a lack of historical context of usage is given. "Tody-Tyrants" (formerly, Tody-Flycatchers) were so named because they are broadly colorful birds with wide bills, a bit like Todies of the Antilles. So it turns out bill shape is quite plastic. That does not mean that a subgroup of colorful, broad-billed species in one or more of these genera should not appropriately remain Tody-Somethings when others do not, or perhaps with a few tweaks to reflect the reason for the nomenclature in the first place.

- The idea that we might abandon a great name like "Bentbill" because of some daft rules on hyphenation (which read more like a spoof than reality and which noone else outside SACC follows) is crazy. This is recommended for rejection but why is it even proposed?

- In contrast, SACC clearly thinks it does not "have to do something" about the tens or possibly hundreds of unresolved, unproposed species limits issues that they never get round to looking at, or the mild splattering of junior synonyms across their list. Some of these 10 eminent ornithologists seem happy enough to take credit as a coauthor of one of the most widely cited publications in ornithology, maybe put together a proposal every 2-3 years based on their own research and periodically make inane comments on papers they ought to, but sometimes don't seem to, have read properly.

- SACC has deliberately done nothing (rejected) changing the name of Redstarts to Whitestarts, a situation that engenders confusion for birds in different families. Except, of course, because those names are not hyphenated, English names do not suggest any phylogenetic relation, but hyphenated names always do. Silly me to have forgotten that!

Not wishing to belittle acknowledgment that the Tody/Pygmy-Tyrant issue does need resolving some way, and this attempt to do so is helpful. But why do we have 10 proposals on this and none on, say, any of the HBW splits or some of the long-standing "old chestnuts" which SACC has never addressed...

Etc etc etc etc.

Arghh.

 

[thomasdonegan]

posted twice, deleted.