Is it just me? (1 Viewer)

[GrampaTom]

And who decides what is "accurate"? And what isn't? And who decides what features matter?

Hermann

The answer is with tongue in cheek intended - above my pay grade. Im raising the question and suggesting how the process might unfold. See #55. The question though is illuminating. Most organizations change, evolve, grow or die. Not suggesting BF is in any danger of this, but why do some feel so challenged by the idea? There were folks in business meetings from my past that asked questions such as this. Usually they are the ones preferring the status quo, resisting change, and not willing to do the work. Not saying thats you....

That said, tho things like Fieldpro as you and i discussed last week, would seem an obvious example.

 

[BabyDov]

"Even if you buy the "wrong" pair, you'll be fine."
Well said. For sure, we're wonderfully spoiled, nowadays, with even many of today's "lower-end" binoculars delivering the 'goods' compared to the 'old days.'

For my first Ornithology class in 1971. I had a pair of 7x35B Leitz Trinovids (saved up for more than a year to buy them) and probably impressed fellow students — but they quickly realized that binoculars don't make the birder. There were students that knew the birds by sight and sound far better than I. Even my renowned ornithology teacher had ratty "low-grade" binoculars compared to my Trinovids.

For perspective, Roger Tory Peterson wrote his first edition of the legendary and revolutionary Field Guide to the Birds in 1934, more than a half-century before phase-corrected coatings, for example, were even available.

I just had cataract surgery. Any upgrade from an ordinary binocular to an alpha can't compare to the upgrade in my vision following this surgery. A fog has been lifted and has been replaced by a clarity with colors popping again, like I can't even remember. Even ordinary binos after surgery would beat Swaros for me before surgery. Sure, my Swaros are even better now, but even without binos I am enjoying seeing the splendor of the entire world around me, not just the birds. The point I am trying to make is when we read a review of a binocular, we aren't necessarily going to see through them in the same way. Every bit as important in the evaluation, if not more so, is the condition of our eyes. Faults, like yellow color rendition or veiling glare, may be a fault of the reviewers eyes, yet be blamed on the binocular. Although, I know I am being repetitive, IMO the only review that matters is the buyer.

 

[GrampaTom]

That's exactly why I've asked Dennis several times not to cheer up a pair of binoculars today in order to sink them in the mud tomorrow.
Tom, it is of course also up to the interested reader to sort the useful from the less useful contributions!
It's a forum where all sorts of people write, it's in the nature of things that a lot of nonsense comes out, we shouldn't exclude ourselves from it, sometimes the daily form is just suboptimal.

Basically, I don't have the impression that the general advice here is completely disastrous, wrong posts are quickly caught and straightened by colleagues, imo that's okay.
It's just our hobby, we are not paid for meaningful contributions, our "reward" is a "like" from a colleague or the "angry" of another colleague, the subsequent battle of words is planned.
All in all, I still see the Birdforum as a useful source of information, you just have to sort it out.

Andreas

Thanks Andreas,
I wonder. Another impression, in terms of active participants day to day, week to week, (here BF/Binos), how many would you guess? 50? 100 seems high. Lee told me awhile back there was something like more than 100,000 registered members at Birdforum. Not sure of that. I wonder if he knows how many circle the outside of the Bino sub group? Point? Day to day its the regulars who show up and keep this format going the way it is. Are we serving those that might come, do read, but dont post so well?

Not saying, just asking.

If one is in the market, (we know birding is growing rapidly at least in the states), how much time are folks willing to spend here wading through the chaff, to get to something that feels actionable? Thinking back to my own join in summer of 2020, Its not days. Probably not just weeks. It took awhile to form an opinion of who's information is to be trusted. I was OK with it, as I enjoy shopping. Others feel differently. Most just wanna go bird.

 

[Conndomat]

If one is in the market, (we know birding is growing rapidly at least in the states), how much time are folks willing to spend here wading through the chaff, to get to something that feels actionable? Thinking back to my own join in summer of 2020, Its not days. Probably not just weeks. It took awhile to form an opinion of who's information is to be trusted. I was OK with it, as I enjoy shopping. Others feel differently. Most just wanna go bird.

Tom, of course, it also depends on the willingness of the "beginner" to get used to it!

How important is it to me, what amount do I want to invest, etc.

If I want to invest a higher amount for something I still don't know much about, I'll inform myself in detail!
In terms of forums, this means I put aside the euphoric and devastating posts and indulge in the more rational comments.
Of course, it is also up to the persuasiveness of the commentator to convince me, exaggerated enthusiasm and devicit-oriented contributions are of little help, most of the time the truth lies right in the middle.

Andreas

 

[Paultricounty]

I think the site is excellent, the sub forums are very informative, the moderators do a great job and one can get all kinds of information on almost any optics. Ive been a lurker for years with my astronomy hobby, before I dived in when I started to get more serious buying binoculars and spotting scopes.

I feel that many people can read between the lines when someone is clearly a brand loyalist , someone who doesn’t like a specific brand, or those that havnt tried the optic, because they say this or that is not worth it because they wouldn’t or couldn’t spend the money.

Much of the information here helped me with many of my purchases the majority of the time. The reason is because there are groups of consensus (even though not complete consensus ) on this or that binoculars pros and cons. I will admit I hesitated a few times buying something because some people said this or that had glare or some other issue, especially the Swaros. I put off Ultravids because of conversations about CA , and I had the Trinovid HD’s that we’re awful with CA. Only later to find out the CA in the UVHD is not an issue at all in the higher end Leica’s, at least not enough to prevent gorgeous image quality and enjoyment.

I think the contribution of the regulars here are yes , even Dennis 😜, very enjoyable, knowledgeable and even entertaining when some start verbally sparring. But I think it’s all good, even when I disagree and throw my weight around and say things a regret , or should’ve waited before I hit Post.

Even with all the ideological, cultural and political differences , and an ocean separating many of us , we all take part in sharing.

Thank you 🙏🏼

Paul

 

[Maljunulo]

Well said, Paul

 

[Maljunulo]

In general, I think that if you don’t know almost as much about the item you’re buying as the guy who is selling it to you, you buy at your peril.

 

[Paultricounty]

That's exactly why I've asked Dennis several times not to cheer up a pair of binoculars today in order to sink them in the mud tomorrow.

Lol, getting Dennis not cheer up binoculars, good luck with that. At least many recognize the pattern , and can be read like a book. The Canon IS 20’s are on sale, is anyone shocked 🤪. It’s almost like playing poker with someone who has a twitch or some facial expression every time they’re bluffing or if they have a good hand , you know what’s coming. No disrespect Dennis ✌🏼

Tom, it is of course also up to the interested reader to sort the useful from the less useful contributions!
It's a forum where all sorts of people write, it's in the nature of things that a lot of nonsense comes out, we shouldn't exclude ourselves from it, sometimes the daily form is just suboptimal.

Basically, I don't have the impression that the general advice here is completely disastrous, wrong posts are quickly caught and straightened by colleagues, imo that's okay.
It's just our hobby, we are not paid for meaningful contributions, our "reward" is a "like" from a colleague or the "angry" of another colleague, the subsequent battle of words is planned.
All in all, I still see the Birdforum as a useful source of information, you just have to sort it out.

Andreas

 

[Ted Y.]

On a different note, let’s think of the content of Binoculars subforum and the content of specialized web pages (not web pages from dealers). With a few exceptions, every time I do it, I run scared back to BF.
All the same, it will be good to improve our content.

 

[tenex]

Maybe it's time to think about the purpose of this forum:

• Is it a forum where users from all over the world can discuss binoculars and scopes, including some highly technical questions? That's how I always saw this forum, although lately there are more and more posts asking for advice, often on topics that have been dealt with in great detail in the past.
• Or is it a forum that first and foremost aims at providing "objective" (whatever that is) advice to people who come here to ask questions? A sort of support forum for beginners and buyers?

Well, in principle both experts and beginners can be well served by the same body of forum discussions, since a sensible person would spend time searching and reading before ever posting. But in practice we do have a growing number of elementary questions from newcomers who won't bother to do that, and at this point apparently even urges to cater to visitors imagined to be incapable rather than merely lazy. So are you suggesting that we need a policy on this because the repetition is too tedious to wade through, or can we just continue to let it sort itself out, with those who care to engage in "support" doing so while you need not?

 

[Owlbarred]

Just a couple thoughts.

I greatly appreciate the input and effort of all those contributing to this thread, despite some acrimony generated by heartfelt differing opinions. Re: this thread's divisive topic, perhaps the adage 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' is applicable. Nothing is perfect, including alpha binoculars and BirdForum -- but both are damn good.

H.L. Mencken famously said: "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." That may apply here.

 

[Maljunulo]

While we are quoting Mencken ……

“The kind of man who wants the government to adopt and enforce his ideas is always the kind of man whose ideas are idiotic.”

 

[Hermann]

Well, in principle both experts and beginners can be well served by the same body of forum discussions, since a sensible person would spend time searching and reading before ever posting. But in practice we do have a growing number of elementary questions from newcomers who won't bother to do that, and at this point apparently even urges to cater to visitors imagined to be incapable rather than merely lazy.

Correct. I'm not sure whether people are incapable of using the forum search or just too lazy. I suspect it's a combination both. But it doesn't matter, the end result is the same.

So are you suggesting that we need a policy on this because the repetition is too tedious to wade through, or can we just continue to let it sort itself out, with those who care to engage in "support" doing so while you need not?

Leave things as they are. And point people more often to existing threads instead of, for instance, explaining DOF for the 100th time. Too many people with a helper syndrome here ( and I'm one of them!) who'll jump at any question instead of telling people to use the forum search first.

Hermann

 

[adhoc]

GrampaTom Post #59.

"I suggest its a bit short of the mark to assume looking through a binocular is only about identifying birds." Sorry if I was not clear, but I do not assume or imply that, nor am I saying the people I cite do.

"I struggle with brevity." I think you underestimate yourself and don't need to struggle much to achieve that. Here (link) you do a d* good job of it!

 

[John M Robinson]

I joined this forum in 2009 as I was finally financially ready to invest in some top of the line binoculars to replace my ancient Leitz 7x35 B that were too expensive to repair. Most of my friends owned Swarovski SLCs or ELs, so I was leaning that direction, but wanted to educate myself on such a big investment. Even back then it was confusing reading sometimes contradictory information, but after awhile you get to sift out the good information and get a feel for who the more credible posters are.

I also have developed a feel for which poster likes one brand over another for whatever personal reason. I have a soft spot for Leica, but I know I would be happy with most any Swarovski or Zeiss product. I make my decisions after actually using them. I’m very lucky to have a store, twenty minutes from my house, with a complete lineup of Leica, Swarovski, Zeiss and Nikon binoculars.

As for Grandpa Tom’s perception that Swarovski is criticized more than its competitors, I don’t think it is. I do think some things are repeated over and over, the glare and rolling ball issues, but the same can be said about CA in Leica or I don’t know what in Zeiss. Personally I think these are all wonderful products that each has its own design trade offs, that are dealbreakers to certain individuals.

 

[GrampaTom]

Well, in principle both experts and beginners can be well served by the same body of forum discussions, since a sensible person would spend time searching and reading before ever posting. But in practice we do have a growing number of elementary questions from newcomers who won't bother to do that, and at this point apparently even urges to cater to visitors imagined to be incapable rather than merely lazy. So are you suggesting that we need a policy on this because the repetition is too tedious to wade through, or can we just continue to let it sort itself out, with those who care to engage in "support" doing so while you need not?

Im not sure its fair to say a "sensible person" would spend time searching and reading before posting. Some might enjoy forum life and like to jump in just cuz it seems fun, sociable. I actually did use the search function before I started writing here. Its OK, but not so great at answering all questions. Some of the themes that we are talking about have gone on for a very long time. Glare for years as an example. Much of that history is still standing and can be misleading. Jumping in to the search function will potentially land you some where in middle of the whole of that. Folks may tire of it and want to know the latest. People participate the way they do for all kinds of reasons, just like the various ways they decide to buy something. Assuming folks are incapable or lazy cuz they dont first search seems unkind.

I'm not sure "policy" is required. This seems something else a bit less formal. Maybe it's more culture. Something we can each decide within ourselves to do. Clearly some of you have decided you did not like where you thought I was heading in post 1. Some have blamed my longish post as being to blame for how they took it. I have learned something and will try to improve my writing style. Might some think about what they're writing in answer to someone from the outside asking a question? Where's this person coming from? Have they given enough to help a member answer? If not, ask them. If something has been discussed ad nauseam, like fieldpro connectors for instance, is the members position unchanged, even in the face of other members attempts to offer an alternative view? And so then the whole magilla gets repeated... Cant we think before we hit send?

 

[tenex]

Think before we hit Send? You began this thread by asking whether we're failing to make this forum as good an information source as it could be; now you want to accommodate people who just like to chat. Except you're afraid that careless chat is just what's making the forum a dubious source of information. That's confusing, so I'll just stick to my point: how good a source the forum is depends mostly on how an individual uses it.

 

[Tripp]

I'm very new to birding and have been watching YouTube vids, reading reviews and combing over this forum for weeks before finally deciding on a pair of binos that fit my budget. I purchased Leica Tinovid HD's. After just reading this whole thread, now I hear they are terrible, just terrible with CA. Lordy lordy, what to do? I feel like such a fool for blowing 1K for such garbage. Haha....just kidding. I love these things and the views allow me to see great detail as I learn to ID birds. I plan on using them until the wheels fall off. I don't really know what CA even is and don't really want to at this point. I just want to walk some trails and watch some birds. I think it's easy to get deep into the weeds with minor issues, and I get it when spending thousands of dollars on binos, but unless these fall apart and Leica refuses to honor warranty - I'm good.

 

[Maljunulo]

I come here for information, and opinions of fine optics, not contemplative navel-gazing.

 

[Paultricounty]

I'm very new to birding and have been watching YouTube vids, reading reviews and combing over this forum for weeks before finally deciding on a pair of binos that fit my budget. I purchased Leica Tinovid HD's. After just reading this whole thread, now I hear they are terrible, just terrible with CA. Lordy lordy, what to do? I feel like such a fool for blowing 1K for such garbage. Haha....just kidding. I love these things and the views allow me to see great detail as I learn to ID birds. I plan on using them until the wheels fall off. I don't really know what CA even is

Thats why you don’t see it🤪. Better you don’t know, you can never unsee it. Leica makes beautiful binoculars, my favorites. Enjoy the optics and birding.

and don't really want to at this point. I just want to walk some trails and watch some birds. I think it's easy to get deep into the weeds with minor issues, and I get it when spending thousands of dollars on binos, but unless these fall apart and Leica refuses to honor warranty - I'm good.