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Ivory-billed Woodpecker (formerly updates) (18 Viewers)

If a diagram did not show literally what was seen, due to the view being fleeting, or the artist being incapable of drawing the bird in a conformation that reflected how it was actually seen, it would be normal practise for someone experienced in recording rare birds, for that to be noted in the description.
 
Oh, please. Just look at Tyler's notes again if you care. His notes do not convey every detail of his encounter (an impossible task), which is what leads us to fill in the gaps. I have postulated an aerobatic maneuver many birds use to gain altitude rapidly at the expense of air speed which agree with Hicks' notes and diagram. Your 1/16 of a second dorsal view does not agree with his diagram. That does not mean I am right, but at least I did not impugn the character of someone I don't know by extrapolating from a poor assumption.

His notes imply he did not obtain a good dorsal view of the bird as he states a better dorsal view was only obtained in the final wing beat. If it had glided thereafter it would be standard practise to say so. With respect to extrapolating from assumptions, given the lack of conclusive evidence either way, I think we're all doing that. Incidentally, I've never seen a loon glide. Have you?
 
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Just look at Tyler's notes again if you care. His notes do not convey every detail of his encounter (an impossible task), which is what leads us to fill in the gaps.

Are we still referring to the Christmas Eve 2005 encounter, or are the notes from Christmas Eve 2006 now published?
 
The bird would have to be climbing like a startled woodcock (as in flying nearly vertical) for the dorsal surface to be clearly visible.

Perhaps an alternative explanation is that as it climbed it used deeper down beats making it more likely that ventral surface of the wings appeared visible on the up and down beats.

This is the 2005 encounter Hummingbird
 
It's obviously absolutely fine to draw a diagrammatical piccie of a bird in your field notes which doesn't show an "actual view" that you saw. As Jane has even suggested, the artistically challenged birder will even sometimes take pre-drawn silhouettes into the field. Nothing wrong with it as far as I'm concerned.

Nevertheless, the Hick's report remains stringy for me, purely because it isn't detailed enough. Again, maybe standards are different in the US, and maybe these aren't his full note which he will submit for examination, but if they are they are absolutely not good enough for a record to be accepted on the basis of...
Sean
 
His notes imply he did not obtain a good dorsal view of the bird as he states a better dorsal view was only obtained in the final wing beat. If it had glided thereafter it would be standard practise to say so. With respect to extrapolating from assumptions, given the lack of conclusive evidence either way, I think we're all doing that. Incidentally, I've never seen a loon glide. Have you?

Of course we're all extrapolating from assumptions. Is it necessary, however, to make assumptions which impugn the character of the observer, especially when other more innocent assumptions are possible? That which is not conveyed completely in field notes should best be left as unknown to those of us who weren't there, rather than assuming those gaps are the product of a self-delusional and dishonest mind.

humminbird said:
Are we still referring to the Christmas Eve 2005 encounter, or are the notes from Christmas Eve 2006 now published?

Actually, the 5/27/2005 encounter at the top of the field notes here.
 
It's obviously absolutely fine to draw a diagrammatical piccie of a bird in your field notes which doesn't show an "actual view" that you saw. As Jane has even suggested, the artistically challenged birder will even sometimes take pre-drawn silhouettes into the field. Nothing wrong with it as far as I'm concerned.

Nevertheless, the Hick's report remains stringy for me, purely because it isn't detailed enough. Again, maybe standards are different in the US, and maybe these aren't his full note which he will submit for examination, but if they are they are absolutely not good enough for a record to be accepted on the basis of...
Sean

Geoff Hill was always very clear that they were not offering proof that Ivory-bills live in the Choctawhatchee, just evidence of it.
 
Of course we're all extrapolating from assumptions. Is it necessary, however, to make assumptions which impugn the character of the observer, especially when other more innocent assumptions are possible? That which is not conveyed completely in field notes should best be left as unknown to those of us who weren't there, rather than assuming those gaps are the product of a self-delusional and dishonest mind.



Actually, the 5/27/2005 encounter at the top of the field notes here.

Thank you. I am surprised no one has mentioned something that occurs prior to the climb - that being that the bird banked. At this point, if the back were turned to the viewer, both wings would have been visible at some points. Rotate the paper 90degrees. This now makes it harder to read the notes, but the bird would be at the right angle.

As is noted above, this was not a brief 1/16 second observation. The notes themselves make it quite clear it was aproximately 6 seconds, and the drawing clearly denotes where the bird came into view, where the observer was, and where the view was lost.

The notes though also leave an AWFUL lot to be desired. This is one of his poorer field notes!
 
. The notes themselves make it quite clear it was aproximately 6 seconds, and the drawing clearly denotes where the bird came into view, where the observer was, and where the view was lost.

A woodpecker flies a long way in 6 seconds (perhaps less if its gliding..) And I thought those woods were dense and impenetrable. Just how did he follow it through the trees for so long?
 
seanofford; said:
It's obviously absolutely fine to draw a diagrammatical piccie of a bird in your field notes which doesn't show an "actual view" that you saw. As Jane has even suggested, the artistically challenged birder will even sometimes take pre-drawn silhouettes into the field. Nothing wrong with it as far as I'm concerned.

Indeed not. But you should cough to the fact in the description!
 


Ok, so no IBWO found - soooo cut down all the trees and destroy all of the wetlands and build roads and houses!

I'm sure you will agree with the above statement, right Tim?

However, I disagree. We need to find a way to preserve this area. But, alas, that is just wishfull dreaming on my part.


Quote:
"I stand by my contention that at least a few Ivory-billed Woodpeckers live in
the forested wetlands along the Choctawhatchee River. We just need more time
and a bit of luck to gather definitive proof for their existence. Unfortunately,
time does not seem to be on our side. The region of the Florida panhandle
around the Choctawhatchee River bottomlands has retained a low density of
people and an abundance of wildlife into the twenty-first century. The winds of
change of blowing, however. The new international airport that is proposed to
be built between the Choctawhatchee and Apalachicola Rivers will not directly
destroy bottomland forest, but it is intended to be the stimulus for a major
development for this part of the Florida panhandle. Already, there are
preliminary plans for a new 4-lane highway across the Choctawhatchee River to
connect the new airport-related developments to Interstate 10 and the rest of
the region. Preliminary plans that I have seen would have the new highway
crossing East River Island, an uninhabited forested island with some of the best
potential ivorybill habitat in the region."
 
"I stand by my contention that at least a few Ivory-billed Woodpeckers live in
the forested wetlands along the Choctawhatchee River. We just need more time
and a bit of luck to gather definitive proof for their existence. Unfortunately,
time does not seem to be on our side. The region of the Florida panhandle
around the Choctawhatchee River bottomlands has retained a low density of
people and an abundance of wildlife into the twenty-first century. The winds of
change of blowing, however. The new international airport that is proposed to
be built between the Choctawhatchee and Apalachicola Rivers will not directly
destroy bottomland forest, but it is intended to be the stimulus for a major
development for this part of the Florida panhandle. Already, there are
preliminary plans for a new 4-lane highway across the Choctawhatchee River to
connect the new airport-related developments to Interstate 10 and the rest of
the region. Preliminary plans that I have seen would have the new highway
crossing East River Island, an uninhabited forested island with some of the best
potential ivorybill habitat in the region.

It sounds like a fantastic area, with or without any IBWO, and therefore i for one hope that you guys manage to stop the development. Here in Blighty, people power (well, financial and safety concerns actually) managed to stop a proposed airport being built on an area of outstanding marshland, http://www.rspb.org.uk/ourwork/policy/sites/international/25years/triumphed/cliffe.asp
while local opposition seems to be stopping an extension to an existing small airport from being built and damaging an excellent nature reserve.http://www.rspb.org.uk/ourwork/conservation/sites/england/lydd.asp

Perhaps everyone should take a step back from delivering the "killer blow" of finding IBWO, and just try and conserve whats there for its own considerable mertits.
 
Oh, please. Just look at Tyler's notes again if you care. His notes do not convey every detail of his encounter (an impossible task), which is what leads us to fill in the gaps. I have postulated an aerobatic maneuver many birds use to gain altitude rapidly at the expense of air speed which agree with Hicks' notes and diagram. Your 1/16 of a second dorsal view does not agree with his diagram. That does not mean I am right, but at least I did not impugn the character of someone I don't know by extrapolating from a poor assumption.

We can argue all we like about Tyler’s notes, which are ultimately so riddled with holes that they put Swiss cheese to shame and makes it impossible to work out what he actually saw. Fundamentally our dispute hinges on whether or not I should extrapolate to impugn Tyler’s character. You are of course entirely right. I am extrapolating and I am impugning (although comments in Tom Nelson’s blog, by those that have birded with him suggest I was being rather kind).

The question is really whether I should do it. So let me defend why I think I should. A bit long-winded, but stay with me.

I know lots of birders. I myself am a birder and although I’m not the keenest or the best, I still haul my arse up Blakeney Point once or twice a week in Spring and Autumn, even if on occasion, despite my predictions of rare, I don’t quite get out of bed in time to find the bird. I know plenty of people who are a lot keener and dedicated than me. Virtually every one of them accurately identifies the birds they see and ultimately spend much of their time birding in the hope of finding a rare bird. In fact many spend hours and hours and hours looking for rare birds and then more hours and then more hours. When they do, they spend time taking detailed field notes, photograph the birds or ensure that others have seen it to. What would these people love to find? What would be the best bird of them all to find? What would be the ornithological discovery of the 20th century. Yup, you’ve guessed it, an IBWO. Some would give their right arm to discover an extinct bird. Cos virtually everyone reckons they're extinct. Yes actually almost everyone! Then along comes a young chap like Tyler Hicks’s and says to everyone - guess what I’ve found one! 3 Times!!! Only I can’t provide you with any evidence and the best I can do is come up with some p*ss-poor field notes that could be put to shame by a novice kid lister in this country. You’re just going to have to trust me though he says. Trust me so much that you should put your academic career on the line for me Dr Hill and get thousands of dollars of tax-payers money to find the bird again so we can get some evidence. Only they can’t. In two years!

Well, sorry for being blunt, but quite frankly Tyler’s sighting and subsequent documentation makes a mockery of the ornithological world. If you read this Tyler and think I’m being harsh, come up with the goods. Get some decent photos like everyone else does when they find rare birds. If you can, I’ll personally fly over to the US and buy you as much beer as you can drink. Alternatively I’ll fly you to the UK and I’ll take you out birding in Norfolk with some of the people I go birding with and we’ll see what you’re really made of.

For anyone else that thinks I’m being harsh, then fair enough, but at least cut through the bull and realise that Tyler’s sightings are stringier than Rab C Nesbitt’s vest. If you disagree, put you money where your mouth is. Donate what you want to the ABC / OBC or NBC and I’ll refund you and double your money and donate it to IBWO conservation if the Lord God Bird rises from the grave.

p.s. Top respect to those that have already
 
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