Ivory-billed Woodpecker (formerly updates) (3 Viewers)

[dacol]

OK...

(i) Plenty of organisations and authors have previously listed IBWO as extinct (or at least presumed extinct), see upthread for this debate and the references; since the recent claims are unsupported by any worthwhile evidence, the status / presumed status of IBWO remains unchanged.

As far as the IBWO in the US is concerned the only organizations that really matter are those in charge of enforcing legal protections, namely the US Fish and Wildlife Service and the state's wildlife authorities. The USFWS never classified the IBWO as extinct, it has always been classified as an endangered species. The wildlife agencies in the states in the historical range of the IBWO have acted accordingly and kept the IBWO classified as endangered.

That some organizations, worthwhile but all self-appointed, have decided, on scant evidence, that the IBWO was extinct, only discouraged people from looking more carefully for this bird. Now that the IBWO continued existence has been documented in 3 different states they had to retract their premature declarations of extinction.

Dalcio

 

[lewis20126]

As far as the IBWO in the US is concerned the only organizations that really matter are those in charge of enforcing legal protections, namely the US Fish and Wildlife Service and the state's wildlife authorities. The USFWS never classified the IBWO as extinct, it has always been classified as an endangered species. The wildlife agencies in the states in the historical range of the IBWO have acted accordingly and kept the IBWO classified as endangered.

That some organizations, worthwhile but all self-appointed, have decided, on scant evidence, that the IBWO was extinct, only discouraged people from looking more carefully for this bird. Now that the IBWO continued existence has been documented in 3 different states they had to retract their premature declarations of extinction.

Dalcio

Dalcio - I did say see upthread; this has all been debated at some length before (including, I hasten to add, the point I made). Perhaps some brave soul can wade through and find the posts. Not me though. Sorry.

Which is your "third state"? Surely not Texas?

 

[dacol]

Dalcio - I did say see upthread; this has all been debated at some length before (including, I hasten to add, the point I made). Perhaps some brave soul can wade through and find the posts. Not me though. Sorry.

Which is your "third state"? Surely not Texas?

Arkansas, Louisiana and Florida.

Dalcio

 

[curunir]

Enough of the childishness please.

It's a Y chromosome thing. Like anorexics, those who post a lot of this stuff can't see how vapid their positions are. I'm sure that most of the time the folks on boths sides of the aisle are pretty reasonable. (Except the loons who won't know who they are.)

 

[Winterdune]

I'm sure that most of the time the folks on boths sides of the aisle are pretty reasonable. (Except the loons who won't know who they are.)

Would that be stiff-winged loons?

Seems to me that MMinNY has been pretty reasonable all along here - he did just what he said - linked to an article that is part of an unexpectedly large press that this one - on the face of it - unremarkable "claimed sighting" is getting. Gawd know's why it's getting so much press or why Fox news took up the ball and ran with it. It's anyone's guess.. Let's hope there IS more to it than meets the eye - though if that was the reason Fox ran it then they sure as hell would have let the cat out of the bag... That's what they do!
Sean

 

[Touche]

Best of luck to those heading out to the swamps for the winter search.

And big respect to those trying to achieve irrefutable IBWO evidence.

If I was on the right side of The Pond I'd be gettin' down and lurkin' amongst the tupelos.

 

[gws]

Arkansas, Louisiana and Florida.

Dalcio

Well, I see Mississippi gets left out again.

Those Pearl birds must be very diligent about not hanging out on the east side of the river.

 

[gws]

Best of luck to those heading out to the swamps for the winter search.

And big respect to those trying to achieve irrefutable IBWO evidence.

If I was on the right side of The Pond I'd be gettin' down and lurkin' amongst the tupelos.

Thanks for your sentiments.

 

[Andy Thatcher]

Is there an effort to see if there are still populations in Cuba ?

Yes, Touche I agree I would love to try and help but even though I live in Florida personal circumstances prevent me.

 

[Merlin]

Good one Touche

Merlin

Best of luck to those heading out to the swamps for the winter search.

And big respect to those trying to achieve irrefutable IBWO evidence.

If I was on the right side of The Pond I'd be gettin' down and lurkin' amongst the tupelos.

 

[Tyke]

Good one Touche

Merlin

Agreed Merlin.
Colin

 

[Russ Jones]

Its nice to see some life back in this thread, this has always been a fun place to visit for me since the first post was put up. I have learned a great deal about this species from the various links, quotes and personal opinions that are regularly shared and I thank you all for that. It is heartbreaking in a way that clear and unquestionable proof has not been forthcoming, it certainly does make one wonder on the status of this bird. Despite this though, I think most of us can agree that it is possible that the species survives. There are people that I believe are convinced they saw the bird and some of whom are much more knowledgable and skilled than myself and many others that post here. It is these sightings that are the most compelling to me. The double-knock-like sounds and calls that have been recorded are also interesting but are inconclusive. I'd like to ask each person that reads this the following questions. This is simply to get everything out in the open and hopefully to enlighten me on other possibilities and insights. I'd love to hear all of your opinions on these! Here goes...

A) Visual encounters. What do you make of the 2005 Gallagher and Sparling sighting where they both report seeing the bird together and at the same time, Mike Collins reports from Louisiana and the 1999 Kullivan sigting? What about all of the other sightings in recent years from both Florida and Arkansas? In other words what do you believe they saw and why do you believe they reported them as IBWO's?

B) IBWO-like calls recorded. Many sound recordings of IBWO call-like sounds have been collected from Arkansas and Florida over the past couple of years. They sound similar to the known IBWO "kent" calls to be sure. What do you suppose made these noises?

C) Double-knocks. What was/were the source(s) of the double-knock sounds recorded from both Arkansas and Florida over the past couple of years?

D) The famous Atchafalaya photos from the early 70's, were they real or fake?

E) The various cavities and foraging sign that have been photographed and documented that seem consistent with IBWO sign, what do you think?

F) The Luneu Video. Pileated or Ivorybill?

G) Mike Collins Video. Pileated or Ivorybill?

Here's my thoughts on the above. Given that nothing brought forth to this point is considered conclusive by all experts these are just opinions based on my own knowledge and feelings.

A) I believe Gallagher and Sparling saw an IBWO together. Despite their being luecistic pileateds in the area I feel these two men knew what they were looking at. I believe David Kullivan saw a pair of IBWO's in Louisiana in 1999. From what I have read he observed the birds for an extended period and was in a position where such an encounter could have happened. The release of Mike Collins videos and sightings from Louisiana add more weight to this sightning. I believe Mike Collins has seen Ivorybills in Loisiana as well and I believe his videos show an Ivorybill.

B) I believe some of the calls that have been recorded are from IBWO's. What is especially interesting to me is the multiple calls, seemingly in response to eachother.

C) I believe most of the double-knock like sounds are indeed the display drum of IBWO's

D) Real. Since I havn't seen the other photos in the series I suppose I can't give an informed decision on it though.

E) I don't know enough about this kind of sign to make an informed decision as to where I thnk they came from. Given the fact that I believe in some of the other evidence that has been brought forth however, it seems reasonable to me that IBWO's made some of the bark peeling sign and cavities reported in Arkansas.

F) Pileated

G) IBWO

Before I wrote this I was a fence sitter, after forcing myself to answer these questions in no uncertain terms (which is what I'd like to see from you guys ) I believe the species is extant in at least two states (Arkansas and Louisiana). I feel better now

Russ

Edit: I also feel this is more constructive then the bickering and childishness that is all too frequent on this thread

 

[Edward woodwood]

way too much 'believing' there Russ - count em!

A-G all been done a hundred times. If you're having to answer them in such an ambiguous way, doesn't it just ring an alarm bell - a teeny little bit?

ask yourself what Sibley, Kaufmann, Bevier et al are saying...

as for observers who have seen IBWOs being 'better' than people on here - I'd trust Ilya, Jane and Alan Lewis etc over anyone, any day

and too many of em are making money out of it - without an effing bird to conserve still!

Tim

 

[Merlin]

Hi Russ
Good to hear your comments, I, and like so many others, like your edit.
Merlin

Its nice to see some life back in this thread, this has always been a fun place to visit for me since the first post was put up. I have learned a great deal about this species from the various links, quotes and personal opinions that are regularly shared and I thank you all for that. It is heartbreaking in a way that clear and unquestionable proof has not been forthcoming, it certainly does make one wonder on the status of this bird. Despite this though, I think most of us can agree that it is possible that the species survives. There are people that I believe are convinced they saw the bird and some of whom are much more knowledgable and skilled than myself and many others that post here. It is these sightings that are the most compelling to me. The double-knock-like sounds and calls that have been recorded are also interesting but are inconclusive. I'd like to ask each person that reads this the following questions. This is simply to get everything out in the open and hopefully to enlighten me on other possibilities and insights. I'd love to hear all of your opinions on these! Here goes...

A) Visual encounters. What do you make of the 2005 Gallagher and Sparling sighting where they both report seeing the bird together and at the same time, Mike Collins reports from Louisiana and the 1999 Kullivan sigting? What about all of the other sightings in recent years from both Florida and Arkansas? In other words what do you believe they saw and why do you believe they reported them as IBWO's?

B) IBWO-like calls recorded. Many sound recordings of IBWO call-like sounds have been collected from Arkansas and Florida over the past couple of years. They sound similar to the known IBWO "kent" calls to be sure. What do you suppose made these noises?

C) Double-knocks. What was/were the source(s) of the double-knock sounds recorded from both Arkansas and Florida over the past couple of years?

D) The famous Atchafalaya photos from the early 70's, were they real or fake?

E) The various cavities and foraging sign that have been photographed and documented that seem consistent with IBWO sign, what do you think?

F) The Luneu Video. Pileated or Ivorybill?

G) Mike Collins Video. Pileated or Ivorybill?

Here's my thoughts on the above. Given that nothing brought forth to this point is considered conclusive by all experts these are just opinions based on my own knowledge and feelings.

A) I believe Gallagher and Sparling saw an IBWO together. Despite their being luecistic pileateds in the area I feel these two men knew what they were looking at. I believe David Kullivan saw a pair of IBWO's in Louisiana in 1999. From what I have read he observed the birds for an extended period and was in a position where such an encounter could have happened. The release of Mike Collins videos and sightings from Louisiana add more weight to this sightning. I believe Mike Collins has seen Ivorybills in Loisiana as well and I believe his videos show an Ivorybill.

B) I believe some of the calls that have been recorded are from IBWO's. What is especially interesting to me is the multiple calls, seemingly in response to eachother.

C) I believe most of the double-knock like sounds are indeed the display drum of IBWO's

D) Real. Since I havn't seen the other photos in the series I suppose I can't give an informed decision on it though.

E) I don't know enough about this kind of sign to make an informed decision as to where I thnk they came from. Given the fact that I believe in some of the other evidence that has been brought forth however, it seems reasonable to me that IBWO's made some of the bark peeling sign and cavities reported in Arkansas.

F) Pileated

G) IBWO

Before I wrote this I was a fence sitter, after forcing myself to answer these questions in no uncertain terms (which is what I'd like to see from you guys ) I believe the species is extant in at least two states (Arkansas and Louisiana). I feel better now

Russ

Edit: I also feel this is more constructive then the bickering and childishness that is all too frequent on this thread

 

[Russ Jones]

way too much 'believing' there Russ - count em!

A-G all been done a hundred times. If you're having to answer them in such an ambiguous way, doesn't it just ring an alarm bell - a teeny little bit?

ask yourself what Sibley, Kaufmann, Bevier et al are saying...

as for observers who have seen IBWOs being 'better' than people on here - I'd trust Ilya, Jane and Alan Lewis etc over any of those muppets, any day

and too many of em are making money out of it - without an effing bird to conserve still!

Tim

Well I suppose if you believe one of the sightings as I do then the rest come a little bit easier. If I didn't believe the sightings to be legit I would probably be less likely to accept the others as legit. I take it you believe in none of it then? Are the sight records a result of mis ID'd birds or lies in your opinion? I'd like to hear your thoughts on the other questions as well, you kinda took the easy way out. How do you explain the recordings? What made the double knock and kent calls? Thats why I posted this, to get an idea of what experienced people like yourself think.

Russ

 

[fangsheath]

Russ - I appreciate your attempt to inject productiveness here but the fact is it doesn’t much matter what any of us think about the evidence up to this point. What matters is what the USFWS thinks and they have made their position pretty clear. Every serious searcher understands that clear video or film is quite necessary at this point and we will either get it or not. Even feather evidence is and has been subject to challenge as potentially fraudulent. We are left with the imagery, and so be it. That is not to say clear imagery won’t be challenged too - just ask Fielding Lewis. But clear imagery with the right characteristics will be accepted by those who matter and we will be able to move forward. It doesn’t matter if the imagery comes from Texas, North Carolina, Illinois, or Florida. It will change everything for everybody. The logic of whether it should or not matters very little. It will. Someone will get it because the birds are out there. Or not. We searchers have no illusions about what is necessary.

 

[Russ Jones]

Russ - I appreciate your attempt to inject productiveness here but the fact is it doesn’t much matter what any of us think about the evidence up to this point. What matters is what the USFWS thinks and they have made their position pretty clear. Every serious searcher understands that clear video or film is quite necessary at this point and we will either get it or not. Even feather evidence is and has been subject to challenge as potentially fraudulent. We are left with the imagery, and so be it. That is not to say clear imagery won’t be challenged too - just ask Fielding Lewis. But clear imagery with the right characteristics will be accepted by those who matter and we will be able to move forward. It doesn’t matter if the imagery comes from Texas, North Carolina, Illinois, or Florida. It will change everything for everybody. The logic of whether it should or not matters very little. It will. Someone will get it because the birds are out there. Or not. We searchers have no illusions about what is necessary.

Fang,

I would like to know what people think. Its not going to change anything in terms of management, but this thread wouldn't be here if only posts that would influence management of the species were put up. I would have especially liked to hear your ideas on the above questions too... I get the feeling that people are not going to open up on this, it's just one of those things people aren't comfortable with I guess. When faced with the simplest of questions.... yes or no on a public forum it is difficult for some to let it be known. You all have your opinions, it'll be interesting to see what they are. That's all I wanted to know.

Cheers,

Russ

 

[MMinNY]

Okay, I'll give it a try, at the risk of getting flamed. Disclaimer, this is my opinion, and I don't pretend to have a monopoly on truth:

A) Visual encounters. What do you make of the 2005 Gallagher and Sparling sighting where they both report seeing the bird together and at the same time, Mike Collins reports from Louisiana and the 1999 Kullivan sigting? What about all of the other sightings in recent years from both Florida and Arkansas? In other words what do you believe they saw and why do you believe they reported them as IBWO's?

Mostly IBWO. A few of them might be PIWOs that were mis-id'ed.

B) IBWO-like calls recorded. Many sound recordings of IBWO call-like sounds have been collected from Arkansas and Florida over the past couple of years. They sound similar to the known IBWO "kent" calls to be sure. What do you suppose made these noises?

Again, mostly IBWO. I've listened to most of the Florida recordings, and some of them seem questionable at best. Many of them are quite convincing, however.

C) Double-knocks. What was/were the source(s) of the double-knock sounds recorded from both Arkansas and Florida over the past couple of years?

Mostly IBWO.

D) The famous Atchafalaya photos from the early 70's, were they real or fake?

Not sure, leaning toward authentic but not totally persuaded. I've heard pretty compelling arguments from people on both sides. What I find most persuasive is Jesse's observation that bark has been scaled on the tree. That lends them a certain aura of authenticity.

E) The various cavities and foraging sign that have been photographed and documented that seem consistent with IBWO sign, what do you think?

Some PIWO. The most impressive to me are some of Mike's recent photos of feeding sign from the Pearl, which don't resemble any PIWO sign I've ever seen.

F) The Luneu Video. Pileated or Ivorybill?

Probably IBWO but I have been swayed by some of the critique to the point that I'm about 60% convinced. Far from beyond a reasonable doubt. The video was never the determining factor for me, although it's clear (as Fang and others have pointed out) that obtaining a clear image is essential at this juncture.

G) Mike Collins Video. Pileated or Ivorybill?

I'm far more confident that this is an IBWO. I've examined it both on DVD and on the computer, more carefully than I have the Luneau video.

I'd add that I also find Steve Sheridan's account convincing.

I guess we're more or less on the same page.

Here's my thoughts on the above. Given that nothing brought forth to this point is considered conclusive by all experts these are just opinions based on my own knowledge and feelings.

A) I believe Gallagher and Sparling saw an IBWO together. Despite their being luecistic pileateds in the area I feel these two men knew what they were looking at. I believe David Kullivan saw a pair of IBWO's in Louisiana in 1999. From what I have read he observed the birds for an extended period and was in a position where such an encounter could have happened. The release of Mike Collins videos and sightings from Louisiana add more weight to this sightning. I believe Mike Collins has seen Ivorybills in Loisiana as well and I believe his videos show an Ivorybill.

B) I believe some of the calls that have been recorded are from IBWO's. What is especially interesting to me is the multiple calls, seemingly in response to eachother.

C) I believe most of the double-knock like sounds are indeed the display drum of IBWO's

D) Real. Since I havn't seen the other photos in the series I suppose I can't give an informed decision on it though.

E) I don't know enough about this kind of sign to make an informed decision as to where I thnk they came from. Given the fact that I believe in some of the other evidence that has been brought forth however, it seems reasonable to me that IBWO's made some of the bark peeling sign and cavities reported in Arkansas.

F) Pileated

G) IBWO

Before I wrote this I was a fence sitter, after forcing myself to answer these questions in no uncertain terms (which is what I'd like to see from you guys ) I believe the species is extant in at least two states (Arkansas and Louisiana). I feel better now

Russ

Edit: I also feel this is more constructive then the bickering and childishness that is all too frequent on this thread

 

[Ilya Maclean]

I do love birders. Only they could spend almost 2 years and 9,000 posts arguing about various shades of grey!

 

[MMinNY]

Naah. It's only 8800 or 8801. Oh, wait, you did say almost. . . B

I do love birders. Only they could spend almost 2 years and 9,000 posts arguing about various shades of grey!

B