Leica's Noctivid and 3D (1 Viewer)

[Theo98]

Something funny is going on in these threads. Let's not make it too complicated.

-some downplay or even ridicule the idea of 3D
-some say 3D in a roof is nonsense, thereby at least acknowledging the existence of 3D (!)
-some clearly see a marked 3D effect in the Noctivid 8x and a few other binoculars

I don't know what to say to the first group.
To the second group I can say: my Ultravid 8x42 is flat, so was my Trinovid 10x42. My Ultravid 10x50 has a marked Viewmaster 3D effect. How?

Some in the third group (Renze?) attribute 3D in the Noctivid to its high transparency. But how do you then explain that I see similar 3D in my 10x50 which is not so transparent as the Noctivid, more on par with my utterly flat Ultravid 8x42? For sure I think the transparency has something to do with it, but I think it's a combination of factors. See my previous post about distortion.

Anthon,

I've no doubt you see a more pronounced 3D effect in your UV 10x50's! I believe a good explanation maybe similar to why I see a substantial stereopsis effect in my 10X50 SV's.

At my IPD of 61mm, the EL 10x50 SV OPD is 70mm. Actually, at any IPD setting, the OPD is always 9mm+ greater. The UV 10X50 (and probably most 10X50's) have objective tubes that also provide a little wider light gathering capabilities due to their larger objective tubes (not true of most roofs). Also to me, their full EP of 5.0 delivers additional spatial clues that allow us to more easily interpret the width and depth of the view as our natural 3D vision does.

In the SV line up, the only EL that came close to what My 10X50 SV offers in 3D realism is the 8.5X42 (an EP of 4.9). The Noctivid 8X42 (EP of 5.25) seems to give most members greater 3D effect than the NV 10X42. Thus, a rational hypothesis of higher Exit Pupil diameters in addition to larger objective roof prism binos, assist some optics (to some viewers) in delivering greater visionary dimensional clues that we normally see unaided in the real world.

Porros, with their very wide offset OPD's, offer Viewmaster 3D type worlds while larger EP instruments generate brighter and greater-ease-of-view freedoms. Singularly or combined, for most viewers they do enhance the glassing experience.

Ted

 

[elkcub]

But of course, we should take measures. With my IPD of 68 the Noctivid's IOD is 68.2 mm. In comparison, my Trinovd 8x32 BA has an IOD of 68.7 mm. Should I see differences in 3-D effect? Now what a sad test instrument am I?

Renze

Well, whether you do or don't there is now physical evidence. But as you pointed out in Post #1, Leica never really stated there was any. Although, to be completely fair, they didn't say there wasn't any either.

Enjoy the toy,
Ed

 

[jan van daalen]

Well, whether you do or don't there is now physical evidence. But as you pointed out in Post #1, Leica never really stated there was any. Although, to be completely fair, they didn't say there wasn't any either.

Enjoy the toy,
Ed

Well, if you had visited the introduction at Wetzlar you would have heared a completely different story:smoke:

Jan

 

[elkcub]

Well, if you had visited the introduction at Wetzlar you would have heared a completely different story:smoke:

Jan

In general, I subscribe to: "Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see."

So, what did you hear?

Ed

 

[jan van daalen]

In general, I subscribe to: "Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see."

So, what did you hear?

Ed

Hi Ed,

It was an impressive pep talk about Noctivids capabillity for increased depth of field and 3D awareness, backed up by the statement that Leica had put more than 100 years of camera/binocular experience in this model. Superbly the best of the best ever produced since all knowledge came together in this piece of Spitzentechnologie etc. etc.

Any serious request from the present audience how (if so) Leica has managed to realize that was answered by the excuse that if they would reveille that, Swaro and Zeiss would profit from it.

Just to make it clear:
The NV is truelly a great bin, but in cant't walk, fly and/or swim and neither can the SF and SVB

Jan

 

[dalat]

Gijs and Jan, both pronounced 3D sceptics. I suspect that Dutch people are 3D challenged, which wouldn't be so surprising, given that your country is basically 2D. o

 

[jan van daalen]

Gijs and Jan, both pronounced 3D sceptics. I suspect that Dutch people are 3D challenged, which wouldn't be so surprising, given that your country is basically 2D. o

LOL,

I think the interpretation of 3D differs between a lot of posters and that gives the "noise".
I have the luxuary to have all the bins within reach and, for me, comparing them on DOF there is no difference between them.
For me there is no doubt that the view in the NV is different than the view the SF/SV offers. The NV offers more contrast. Black is more defined. Does this explain/creates 3D for some?
When I was at the launch of the NV I didn't took SV/SF for comparison with me and the 3D of the NV struck me in the woods, probably caused by the oneandahalfhour peptalk and I was trying to see what others talked about:eat:
Back home I did the comparison between NV/SF/SV and the same so called "3D" effect was present in all 3 models.

3D, what's in a name?

Jan

 

[Renze de Vries]

Hi Ed,

It was an impressive pep talk about Noctivids capabillity for increased depth of field and 3D awareness, backed up by the statement that Leica had put more than 100 years of camera/binocular experience in this model. Superbly the best of the best ever produced since all knowledge came together in this piece of Spitzentechnologie etc. etc.

Any serious request from the present audience how (if so) Leica has managed to realize that was answered by the excuse that if they would reveille that, Swaro and Zeiss would profit from it.

Just to make it clear:
The NV is truelly a great bin, but in cant't walk, fly and/or swim and neither can the SF and SVB

Jan

Jan,

Did you expect something else from Leica at the Noctivid's presentation?

Was the question asked from the audience if Leica expected everybody to see increased depth and become aware of 3-D?

Renze

 

[Troubador]

Gijs and Jan, both pronounced 3D sceptics. I suspect that Dutch people are 3D challenged, which wouldn't be so surprising, given that your country is basically 2D. o

LOL :-O:t:

But Dalat you fail to take into consideration the church tower in Utrecht that is 112.5m high. This changes the Dutch landscape into 3D locally and can be enjoyed even without a Noctivid,

Unfortunately this impressive and unique structure is not appreciated in the Netherlands as the Dutch people do not yet know how to bend their necks backwards to look upwards.

Lee
Met verontschuldigingen aan Nederlandse volk, het is slechts een grap.

 

[jan van daalen]

Jan,

Did you expect something else from Leica at the Noctivid's presentation?

Was the question asked from the audience if Leica expected everybody to see increased depth and become aware of 3-D?

Renze

Hi Renze,

Untill NV's launch, at every launch I was present, the rep points out the highlights of the new model and answers every technical and/or other question to satisfactory. This is extremely important because these questions will/can also being asked by the potential buyer and he needs/want also a satisfactory answer.
At Leica's it was highlighting the pro's but in no way explaining how they accomplished it.
For example: When the customer asks how FF is realized with the SV/SF, I grab both cut a ways and show them.
It happens that the customer asks me, that he has read raving 3D experiences with the NV (Forums are powerfull) and what he must see/or how Leica fixed it.
In those cases I can't go any further than my opinion in the post before.
The actual possesion of the NV happened after the "peptalk" and outside, so there was no actual possibillity to combine actual use with theoratical marketing.

Jan

 

[Anthon]

LOL,

I think the interpretation of 3D differs between a lot of posters and that gives the "noise".
I have the luxuary to have all the bins within reach and, for me, comparing them on DOF there is no difference between them.
For me there is no doubt that the view in the NV is different than the view the SF/SV offers. The NV offers more contrast. Black is more defined. Does this explain/creates 3D for some?
When I was at the launch of the NV I didn't took SV/SF for comparison with me and the 3D of the NV struck me in the woods, probably caused by the oneandahalfhour peptalk and I was trying to see what others talked about:eat:
Back home I did the comparison between NV/SF/SV and the same so called "3D" effect was present in all 3 models.

3D, what's in a name?

Jan

The mystery deepens :king:
Just to avoid further confusion, most people here do not refer to DOF when they talk about 3D! Personally I think it's irrelevant.

Anyway, maybe we should use a reference bin and compare 3D against that reference. Let's take the Habicht 8x30 as a reference since even the biggest sceptic of 3D on this page admits it has excellent 3D. Let's give it 5 stars.

Compared to the Habicht reference 3D, how would you rate the NV/SF/SV?

 

[jan van daalen]

The mystery deepens :king:
Just to avoid further confusion, most people here do not refer to DOF when they talk about 3D! Personally I think it's irrelevant.

Anyway, maybe we should use a reference bin and compare 3D against that reference. Let's take the Habicht 8x30 as a reference since even the biggest sceptic of 3D on this page admits it has excellent 3D. Let's give it 5 stars.

Compared to the Habicht reference 3D, how would you rate the NV/SF/SV?

Anthon,

For me the whole 3D discussion is meaningless.
After 100 meters that difference (difference in angle)is no longer noticeble.
But that is just me talking.
Others will disagree completely:-C.

Jan

 

[ceasar]

Anthon,

For me the whole 3D discussion is meaningless.
After 100 meters that difference (difference in angle)is no longer noticeble.
But that is just me talking.
Others will disagree completely:-C.

Jan

:t:

Bob

 

[Canip]

Anthon,

For me the whole 3D discussion is meaningless.
After 100 meters that difference (difference in angle)is no longer noticeble.
But that is just me talking.
Others will disagree completely:-C.

Jan

.... or agree completely :t:

 

[Anthon]

Anthon,

For me the whole 3D discussion is meaningless.
After 100 meters that difference (difference in angle)is no longer noticeble.
But that is just me talking.
Others will disagree completely:-C.

Jan

Too bad. You raise some interesting issues (same 3D as in other roofs at your disposal) but when asked for clarification you simply say that the discussion is meaningless?

 

[Troubador]

Too bad. You raise some interesting issues (same 3D as in other roofs at your disposal) but when asked for clarification you simply say that the discussion is meaningless?

Anthon

I am sure Jan can speak for himself but I think he posted that he saw the same DOF (not 3D) in each of the alphas, which, if they have the same magnification, is what one would expect.

And I am sure he mentioned depth of field because Leica say this on their website: 'Thanks to superior contrasts and uncompromisingly large depth of field' etc etc

Lee

 

[Torview]

Found this description of image plasticity.

Another element of plasticity can be the focus (in the photographic sense), where separate parts of an image are in different focus, thus creating depth and dimension through variations in resolution.

Personally I think its more marketing bs, remember Zeiss told us we`d see nature in a different way, turns out the SF was just another very fine optic, pretty sure the Leica is just another very fine optic also.

 

[Troubador]

Found this description of image plasticity.

Another element of plasticity can be the focus (in the photographic sense), where separate parts of an image are in different focus, thus creating depth and dimension through variations in resolution.

Personally I think its more marketing bs, remember Zeiss told us we`d see nature in a different way, turns out the SF was just another very fine optic, pretty sure the Leica is just another very fine optic also.

John

I am convinced that a big part of the problem with this 'BS' is that ads and brochures get written by marketing folks who are not competent to interpret the technical facts given them by the client and although fluent in the language that they write the material in, are not familiar enough with idioms of the language. So when they and the client looks at the resulting copy in English, say, they just don't realise that it is technically and idiomatically (or idiotically, you choose) inept.

Or to put it another way: BS.

Lee

 

[jan van daalen]

Too bad. You raise some interesting issues (same 3D as in other roofs at your disposal) but when asked for clarification you simply say that the discussion is meaningless?

Sorry if I have let you down with my lack of clarification.
To my defence I can only say that no clarification is known (except for the inner circle of Leica marketing) by me for Noctivids 3D capability (if there is any):smoke:

Jan

 

[SuperDuty]

I want a binocular with Supercalafragilisticexpialidocious capability.