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Lesser Horseshoes roosting in the stable (1 Viewer)

Hi all. Lesser horseshoes have adopted an old stable. I first saw the droppings in May this year but assumed they were just the droppings of tiny mice - the area where they're roosting is obscured when you're directly underneath so hadn't seen the bats until last week. Having now seen them and having watched a video from a Welsh bat group, they appear to be Lesser Horseshoes. ( I don't want to get close to them obviously) This stable has a breathable roof membrane which I have just learned is a bad thing. Is there anything I can do about that and when could I do it without disturbng them? I am not willing to take off the roof to replace the membrane. They appear to be always in the same area - near the ridge line, between the joists, hanging from membrane. We go in and out of that stable everyday as we have freezers and a washer etc in there so I am surprised that they have tolerated that. (I allow swallows to nest in there over the summer.)
 
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Hi SFS and a warm welcome to you from all the Staff and Moderators. My take on this would be that if they didn't like the conditions they wouldn't stay, so perhaps that membrane isn't an issue for them. But as Mono says, get in touch with your local bat group - they will probably have all the information you need.

I'm sure you will enjoy it here and I look forward to hearing your news.
 
Curious to know why a breathable roof membrane would be a bad thing? We have several bat roosts and the biggest are under just such a roof membrane (as far as I know they’ve been there for several years).
 
Thanks to all for the responses
My local bat group's website tells visitors to contact NRW ( National Resources Wales) Having looked at the legislation re the lack of minimum thresholds for ' disturbance' am not sure I want to go down that route just yet.

Torchepot.
Regarding the roof membranes, the Bat Conservation Trust is the site I looked at last week. It recommended a product but one of the academics involved in the research has since issued a warning . Non-Bitumen Coated Roofing Membranes (formerly BRMs) - Buildings, planning and development - Bat Conservation Trust
That BCT page is very wordy so TLDR ....it states that the only modern roof membrane that passes the 'snag test' for ' dangling bats' is this one, made by TLX. TLX explains it much more simply in this short video.

However others, such as Wilding say that it is a con. (Dr Stacey Wilding was involved in the research)

I was about to buy some TLX and bodge up a fix using strips of TLX and a staple gun ( If or when they moved on to a hibernation site)
Not going to do that now.
Traditional bitumen & hessian felt is - apparently - still the only one which can be described as batsafe. Gonna to try & research how easy it is to retrofit this & buy a Magenta bat detector in the meantime, to see what other species we have here. Example of traditional type Chesterfelt Type 1F Bitumen Underslaters Felt 15mtr x 1mtr

Looks like the Bat Conservation Trust better get their act together.

Dr Stacey Wilding

Am adding all these links in case it is useful for somebody else
 
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Comparing pictures of a new membrane to those with the dead entangled bats in the ferret.scot article, it should take quite some time before the membrane becomes dangerous...
 
Many thanks SFS - having read your attachments through now - I can see that this is a real issue and unfortunately it’s not easy to fix.
I didn’t realise that it’s the action of the bats claws which is “fluffing up” the membrane and producing the threads that then entangles them. Of course this is in the exact place that they choose to roost - so they effectively make a trap for themselves even if they move from one part of the space to another.
Apart from their apparently unfounded claims that their product is ”bat safe” I found the TLX product information to be disingenuous- they seem to be claiming that by lining your roof with their membrane you can save tonnes of CO2 from going into the atmosphere - when in fact I would imagine that the membrane has minimal effect as a thermal barrier and that the savings come from adding insulation.
I’m going to check the condition of our main bat roost tonight (hopefully just after dusk the bats will be out hunting and I won’t disturb them). If we do have an issue I can’t see any easy fix - the only way to replace the BRM with felt would be to strip the whole thing and re-roof!!
In our last property one side of the roof (which was lined with roofing felt) faced due South, the felt on that side was extremely brittle and bits were starting to come away. My fear is that the life expectancy of roofing felt in that kind of situation is far shorter than the life of tiles or slates or even the roofing battens.
Of course one option would be to remove the offending material completely, but having had leaking roofs with no felt or membrane on a couple of roofs over the years I‘d be reluctant to do away with the barrier entirely.
:oops:
 
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Comparing pictures of a new membrane to those with the dead entangled bats in the ferret.scot article, it should take quite some time before the membrane becomes dangerous...
Sure but a breathable membrane ( like a slate roof ) is a long term product isn't it?
Nobody applies a BRM or slates a roof thinking , ah well, it's only for a little while.
( Roof slated with Welsh slate can last a century)
 
Many thanks SFS - having read your attachments through now - I can see that this is a real issue and unfortunately it’s not easy to fix.
I didn’t realise that it’s the action of the bats claws which is “fluffing up” the membrane and producing the threads that then entangles them. Of course this is in the exact place that they choose to roost - so they effectively make a trap for themselves even if they move from one part of the space to another.
Apart from their apparently unfounded claims that their product is ”bat safe” I found the TLX product information to be disingenuous- they seem to be claiming that by lining your roof with their membrane you can save tonnes of CO2 from going into the atmosphere - when in fact I would imagine that the membrane has minimal effect as a thermal barrier and that the savings come from adding insulation.
I’m going to check the condition of our main bat roost tonight (hopefully just after dusk the bats will be out hunting and I won’t disturb them). If we do have an issue I can’t see any easy fix - the only way to replace the BRM with felt would be to strip the whole thing and re-roof!!
In our last property one side of the roof (which was lined with roofing felt) faced due South, the felt on that side was extremely brittle and bits were starting to come away. My fear is that the life expectancy of roofing felt in that kind of situation is far shorter than the life of tiles or slates or even the roofing battens.
Of course one option would be to remove the offending material completely, but having had leaking roofs with no felt or membrane on a couple of roofs over the years I‘d be reluctant to do away with the barrier entirely.
:oops:
It's frustrating for sure.
I had a look at the roof void this morning, because in that final link I added ( Stacy Waring bat news pdf) a solution was offered for somebody's bat roost in England. ( Part removal from ridge line down to purlins. substitute with traditional felt to the first purlin with battening. I need to look into that to see how big of a job it is. Sounds big & expensive. Am going to have dig around and see what other solutions have worked for others.

On the plus side I have done a crash-course on bats in Wales in the last week! We went out last night at 7pm ish to wait to see which exit they are using. ( I was hoping it wasn't the glass window pane I was about to repair but of course it is & I've now learned that this species needs the 'flying exit. ' So I am putting off that window repair. ( Waiting to see if these LHS bats leave in October for a hibernation site because I doubt our stable is cold enough for them over winter. We're on full renewables here so we have a ballast heater in that stable which turns on whenever we generate excess energy)
We spotted another type of bat (?) exiting through the gable apex ' gap I'd left for swallows, so I have bought the basic bat detector Magenta 5.
As with the BTO tetrad gaps, it looks as if my location grids have no regular recorders for bats and the NRW's guy Sam Dyer has a video saying they're specifically looking for Barbastelle, Alcathoe so I'll give it a whirl ;) in 2024.
. ( I did the volunteer spotting for the Bird Atlas 2007–11. I wouldn't describe myself as a ' birder', I did it because nobody had been resident in my spot for over 50 years )

By the way, some of these standalone dedicated bat roosts being produced in Ireland are interesting. The bat lofts look significantly smaller than the ideal 5mx5mx 2.8m tall specified in the Wales & England ' build a bat loft 'guides. https://www.mulkeareip.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Mulkear-Lesser-Horseshoe-Bat-project.pdf
 
Had a look at one of our outbuildings which has the same BRM but as yet no bat roost. It occurs to me that there may be a relatively cheap way to solve this.
I was thinking about stripping the roof and laying 1F felt before re-roofing, then it occurred to me that if you leave the BRM in place and manage to retrofit 1F snug up against it from below, between the rafters, that you're not really any worse off. What I'm thinking of would be a little like a canvas stretched on a frame (except that you probably don't need the top and bottom rails. It could almost certainly be fitted in situ. The key would be keeping the gap between BRM and felt small enough that the bats couldn't hang from the BRM. If our main roof has got an issue I'll probably try it out.
 
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Sure but a breathable membrane ( like a slate roof ) is a long term product isn't it?
Nobody applies a BRM or slates a roof thinking , ah well, it's only for a little while.
( Roof slated with Welsh slate can last a century)

If possible I'd just cover the area where they roost with light wood panels/plywood, screwed to the main beams so that they are easily removed when needed but strong enough to support the weight of some dozens of bats.
 
Had a look at one of our outbuildings which has the same BRM but as yet no bat roost. It occurs to me that there may be a relatively cheap way to solve this.
I was thinking about stripping the roof and laying 1F felt before re-roofing, then it occurred to me that if you leave the BRM in place and manage to retrofit 1F snug up against it from below, between the rafters, that you're not really any worse off. What I'm thinking of would be a little like a canvas stretched on a frame (except that you probably don't need the top and bottom rails. It could almost certainly be fitted in situ. The key would be keeping the gap between BRM and felt small enough that the bats couldn't hang from the BRM. If our main roof has got an issue I'll probably try it out.
Sounds interesting Tp. I will also try some solutions once the bats have left for their winter hibernation sites. Anything that works/doesn't work, I will post on here but I won't know until spring 2024 whether these females find them acceptable.

If you plan to strip a roof - because it needed doing anyway - wouldn't you just use the 1F felt?
BTW, just to add, if you decide to re-do a roof cause it needs doing.
- we have 6 veluxes in ours ( as well as windows in walls) and it was obviously still dark enough for the LHS daytime.
And in retrospect there are two key things we did which must have made it an attractive maternity roost in 2023. Smashing out that pane in autumn 2022 but not replacing it - even though it is not at the height experts prefer for flying exit, must be good enough. And prior to 2022, slating the roof to make it warm & draught-free for females.

(re flying exit. It varies according to reports. Minimum 300 x 200 mm at 'Monmouthshire' link attached. However, Mulkear, Ireland, linked post 10 on this Birdforum thread, specifies 46cm x23cm) Most important factor seems to be safety of exit- what you have next to the exit. We have a line of trees giving them cover. I notice that they also use the roof's fascia boards as cover, flying parallel along the inside of the fascia as they exit. (Plenty of owls here. )

For anyone without bat roosts or outbuildings, I reckon the best thing anybody can do in this season is replant bird-sown native trees & shrubs which appear on your property. Have been doing that for years here. Cost effective, fast-establishment, now's ideal time to transplant. I did that for birds & insects as I hadn't considered bats per se. Now, looking at the various ' landscape design. for bats' reports I've inadvertently produced a bat-heaven. Planted hedges, trees, let some hedges become overgrown - for nesting birds- and maxed out on nectar and pollen plants.
For people who live in urban or semi-urban areas, planting a hedge & then maintaining it at the preferred height is achievable? Attaching a diagram below to explain.


I am still researching to try & gen up on what these LHS need and being very quiet when I have to go in there - just counting them in the mornings.
My greenhouse min/max thermometer is bust so I've hung a fridge thermometer from a joist & then compared it to what the experts say the LHS prefer in their 'hibernacula' vs maternity roost, temperature & humidity ratings.
It definitely won't be cold enough for them in this stable so they're going to be moving on. I don't know where they're planning to go. ( I need to check map for caves, old mines & tunnels because I don't know of any)
( For LHS, guide given for Buckland House Maternity Roost in Monmouthshire from Page 115 https://www.monmouthshire.gov.uk/app/uploads/2015/07/Habitat-Regulations-Report-June-2011.pdf
'during hibernation Internal conditions: The temperature should remain constantly cool (8-12C) and dark, once beyond the entrance zone..No significant man-induced changes to ventilation or temperature regime.’

Screenshot 2023-10-02 at 11.05.38.png


Source for image: https://cdn.bats.org.uk/uploads/pdf/Our Work/Landscape_and_urban_design_for_bats_and_biodiversityweb.pdf?v=1541085229
'
 
Hi SFS - wow you’ve been really busy! Lots of valuable info(y)
I didn’t make myself too clear when I was talking about stripping the roof - my idea for an alternative is to leave the roof including the BRM in place and fit 1F felt (or possibly some other material) snug up against the underside of the BRM. Basically the same idea that you had when you thought of stapling strips of TRX to the rafters, under the BRM. It’s a shame that the study which you linked to doesn’t go into more detail about why her experiments with shade material and other options wasn’t a success. I’m looking at the possibility of using woven sailcloth as an option - I thought about ply lining as S_Man suggests but worry that it may be too smooth for the bats to grip - it could work out as rather costly for a big roof too.
There is mention of part of the problem being the non-woven nature of BRM so I’m assuming (always dangerous!) that a woven material like sailcloth would be OK?
I’ve found some which works out at about £3 per sq metre which seems like an economical option - if it works! The advantage of something like sailcloth is that it can be easily installed - just cut with scissors and staple it or use some little battens.
There was a break in the rain here last night so had a peek at the loft. Great news! - the main roof space is lined with bitumastic felt so no chance of entanglement. The bad news is that BRM has been used just about everywhere else on our property. The porch roof has it and two of our outbuildings are completely wrapped in it on the walls - under the cladding. I know that bats use these walls to roost in but getting to the BRM would be a nightmare.
The previous owner had a bat survey done but he can’t find the details or remember the results other than there were 5 species recorded, I keep thinking I should do a follow up.
I fear that as this material is in such widespread use the problem of bats getting entangled is likely to be significant- and is only going to get worse. There should be widespread publicity and legistation on usage would be a good idea.

P.S. Sounds like a great place you’ve got there - and exciting to have LHS roosting!
 
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Hi SFS - wow you’ve been really busy! Lots of valuable info(y)
I didn’t make myself too clear when I was talking about stripping the roof - my idea for an alternative is to leave the roof including the BRM in place and fit 1F felt (or possibly some other material) snug up against the underside of the BRM. Basically the same idea that you had when you thought of stapling strips of TRX to the rafters, under the BRM. It’s a shame that the study which you linked to doesn’t go into more detail about why her experiments with shade material and other options wasn’t a success. I’m looking at the possibility of using woven sailcloth as an option - I thought about ply lining as S_Man suggests but worry that it may be too smooth for the bats to grip - it could work out as rather costly for a big roof too.
There is mention of part of the problem being the non-woven nature of BRM so I’m assuming (always dangerous!) that a woven material like sailcloth would be OK?
I’ve found some which works out at about £3 per sq metre which seems like an economical option - if it works! The advantage of something like sailcloth is that it can be easily installed - just cut with scissors and staple it or use some little battens.
There was a break in the rain here last night so had a peek at the loft. Great news! - the main roof space is lined with bitumastic felt so no chance of entanglement. The bad news is that BRM has been used just about everywhere else on our property. The porch roof has it and two of our outbuildings are completely wrapped in it on the walls - under the cladding. I know that bats use these walls to roost in but getting to the BRM would be a nightmare.
The previous owner had a bat survey done but can’t find the details or remember the results other than there were 5 species recorded, I keep thinking I should do a follow up.
I fear that as this material is in such widespread use the problem of bats getting entangled is likely to be significant- and is only going to get worse. There should be widespread publicity and legistation on usage would be a good idea.

P.S. Sounds like a great place you’ve got there - and exciting to have LHS roosting!
Good news on your main roof.
Yes follow-up on that old bat survey? In the meantime you could look at your map reference at one of the mammal societies or your national 'Biodiversity Information & Reporting Database' The linked one is only for Wales, type either your postcode or a 1km grid square. Will be an equivalent database for Eng, Scot ... Aderyn :: Public :: What's in my Area?

Ah okay, we're on the same page. I thought you were about to de-slate your roof :oops:
Sailcloth sounds interesting. Can you pill test it? I dunno, get a wire brush/suede brush/Dremel tool and see how it performs?
There's bound to be some kind of fabric short term solution which is worth considering & luckily there's November through to Spring to work out which one is a viable option.

I also noticed 'plastic windbreak mesh' mentioned in one report. ( I need to get in touch with them and ask exactly which type they mean. I already have some green mesh. If it's an option, using some rolls of this is very quick, and you can attach it in the way S-Man suggested. No fiddling around fitting stuff between each rafter. ) The stuff I already have: 90% Shelter & Shade Netting - Green Knitted Fencing Mesh - 1m x 50m

'High Marks Barn, Devon. ‘....lined with bitumastic felt and plastic windbreak mesh (for bats to perch on) and this is covered with natural Brazilian slates.’
High Marks Barn SSSI, South Devon - Bat Conservation Trust

Anyway, I don't intend trying-out anything dubious without checking with an expert first. Too easy to end up with a product that's even worse than the BRM

Have you seen this? Online bat forum via Zoom, tomorrow. I'm not planning to participate but you could! ;)
Me: ' Oh hello, everything I know about bats I ...erm...learned last week'
I'd sound like a real eejit
 
Have you seen this? Online bat forum via Zoom, tomorrow. I'm not planning to participate but you could! ;)
Me: ' Oh hello, everything I know about bats I ...erm...learned last week'
I'd sound like a real eejit
LOL!!!

But you might be able to ask some sensible questions if there's a lull in the conversation. Get things rolling again!!
 
I also noticed 'plastic windbreak mesh' mentioned in one report. ( I need to get in touch with them and ask exactly which type they mean. I already have some green mesh. If it's an option, using some rolls of this is very quick, and you can attach it in the way S-Man suggested. No fiddling around fitting stuff between each rafter. ) The stuff I already have: 90% Shelter & Shade Netting - Green Knitted Fencing Mesh - 1m x 50m
I’ve got a roll of something very like that but wonder how robust it might be with bats hanging from it.
Not sure if I understand properly but are you suggesting fixing the material to the underside of the rafters? If so then a very quick install process but I would be very surprised if bats didn’t find their way into the space between the material and the BRM, they love to squeeze their way into even the tiniest gaps.
High Marks Barn is very impressive (gets high marks from me - groan) the two photos of the bats roosting together looks a lot like they’re hanging from OSB or something similar.

Don’t think I’ll be joining the zoom forum - working on the principle that if I keep quiet people may think I don’t know much - but if I join in I’ll leave no shadow of a doubt!
 
I’ve got a roll of something very like that but wonder how robust it might be with bats hanging from it.
Not sure if I understand properly but are you suggesting fixing the material to the underside of the rafters? If so then a very quick install process but I would be very surprised if bats didn’t find their way into the space between the material and the BRM, they love to squeeze their way into even the tiniest gaps.
High Marks Barn is very impressive (gets high marks from me - groan) the two photos of the bats roosting together looks a lot like they’re hanging from OSB or something similar.

Don’t think I’ll be joining the zoom forum - working on the principle that if I keep quiet people may think I don’t know much - but if I join in I’ll leave no shadow of a doubt!
Yes that's what I was thinking but I think you're right. Risky. Hard to seal around the edges where it meets the stone walls. Trapped juveniles?

That Devon Bat Group looks very proactive. On youtube I found some of their videos at the Devon Wildlife Trust's Youtube account

Mesh close-up in the video linked. Used between roof rafters but also on vertical surfaces. Wonder what it is? Is that OSB? If so , what is it/cost etc? And how would you fix it to the surface? In the close-up, looks like it's atop the BRM. ( Although would need to ask them what the white surface is, under the mesh. Seems odd that they'd leave BRM in situ in one of the most important roosts in England)


re The bat symposium. No harm in asking but with jokes like that, you're probably wise to steer clear ;) ' High Marks Barn is very impressive - gets high marks from me - groan. '
I'm not doing it either, they'd mute me.

Screenshot 2023-10-02 at 18.54.38.png
mesh image
 
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Looks interesting- it’s not OSB (oriented strand board) used to be called Sterling board or wafer board - it’s made up of chopped up timber formed into a board and held together with some kind of resin.
Whatever that mesh is the bats really like it, almost all of them are using it (don’t think there’s any BRM under it though).
 
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Looks interesting- it’s not OSB (oriented strand board) used to be called Sterling board or wafer board - it’s made up of chopped up timber formed into a board and held together with some kind of resin.
bingo!

maybe

Could it be same product as found in last photo at this website ? Or another on the page

HDPE Extruded Windbreak Mesh with small holes 4 mm × 4 mm​

 

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