Noctivid 10x42 Olive Green Edition (1 Viewer)

[eronald]

It was a joke!!!!

I know
We're getting too much of a gradation of "made by".
1- really made by X in their factory in Germany
2- really made by X in their factory in ZZZ and final assembly in Germany
3- final optical assembly by X in their factory in ZZZ from major optical components that are subcontracted
4- final inspection and label pasted on somewhere, maybe by an employee delegated for QA, and boxed in that place
5- entirely made and QA checked by a subcontractor, labelled and boxed and shipped directly to destination.

Replace "Germany" by Austria or Japan etc.

Up to and including 3, there is still some hope that a company's historical craftsmanship will carry over to the product.
At 4 and 5 there can be substantial product variations before anyone at the mothership can get quality back to where it should be, whatever the good intentions.

Edmund

 

[Rg548]

I think it does matter to some people...
Where things are made, or have been made, is always stamped on an item where the manufacturer feels it has pride in it.

I like my watches, so when I wanted a particular Seiko model, it is made in Thailand, but there is a JDM 'Japan Domestic Market' version of the exact same watch. They are identical, but I imported mine from Japan, and it has stamped, very small, 'made in japan' at the bottom of the dial.
This makes a difference to me, and actually the value of the watch.
High end Grand Seiko's are hand built in Japan, if they moved that to say, China or Thailand, the bottom of the market for Grand Seiko would just fall out... regardless of the quality, and they knock spots off Swiss timepeices for quality. But people will still pay Swiss prices because historically Swiss watches are said to be 'better'..... However...I would argue that on my experience!!!!!

I would feel a little short changed if my top end Leica's said Portugal, instead of Germany, because historically, that has been the mark of quality, and Leica are a German company.
I understand there is no optical difference, but high end Japanese optics, for example, are lower priced as a rule, beacause however good they are, they don't have that European optics status, and cannot command those prices..... Nikon EDG's, SE's, have never sold as well as Leica, Zeiss, Swaro etc, and they are spectacular optics, made to the highest tolerances.

Where things are made has always been a perceived mark of quality, justified or not, and it is very hard to change that.

I am guilty..... sorry!!

 

[eronald]

I think it does matter to some people...
Where things are made, or have been made, is always stamped on an item where the manufacturer feels it has pride in it.

I like my watches, so when I wanted a particular Seiko model, it is made in Thailand, but there is a JDM 'Japan Domestic Market' version of the exact same watch. They are identical, but I imported mine from Japan, and it has stamped, very small, 'made in japan' at the bottom of the dial.
This makes a difference to me, and actually the value of the watch.
High end Grand Seiko's are hand built in Japan, if they moved that to say, China or Thailand, the bottom of the market for Grand Seiko would just fall out... regardless of the quality, and they knock spots off Swiss timepeices for quality. But people will still pay Swiss prices because historically Swiss watches are said to be 'better'..... However...I would argue that on my experience!!!!!

I would feel a little short changed if my top end Leica's said Portugal, instead of Germany, because historically, that has been the mark of quality, and Leica are a German company.
I understand there is no optical difference, but high end Japanese optics, for example, are lower priced as a rule, beacause however good they are, they don't have that European optics status, and cannot command those prices..... Nikon EDG's, SE's, have never sold as well as Leica, Zeiss, Swaro etc, and they are spectacular optics, made to the highest tolerances.

Where things are made has always been a perceived mark of quality, justified or not, and it is very hard to change that.

I am guilty..... sorry!!

Indeed, there appears to be "value" and then "perceived value". And for most sales of "luxury" non essential products we pay for "perceived value", even when the product is bottled water.

Problems start when you test your bottled water, and realize the MBAs have started filling the bottles from the tap

Edmund

 

[cottonbase]

Indeed, there appears to be "value" and then "perceived value". And for most sales of "luxury" non essential products we pay for "perceived value", even when the product is bottled water.

Problems start when you test your bottled water, and realize the MBAs have started filling the bottles from the tap

Edmund

The customer defines value. Period. No one else.

Price is something else entirely.

 

[Paultricounty]

Nowhere on the GPO binoculars is mentioned Made in Germany, so GPO is just a name and it does not suggest that it is made in Germany. The owners, however, are German citizens who had an important function in leading German optical companies before they started GPO. And it is also well known that GPO binoculars are made for GPO in Asia. So nothing wrong with that name in my opinion.
Gijs van Ginkel

The head office of GPO is in fact in Germany, where design is done. The USA office is headed by Mike Jensen, who is not, as far as I know an optical engineer., When Richard Schmidt left Zeiss some designers and engineers stayed with him. The design and development work is done there. Just because the binocular design is contracted to an OEM like Kamakura for final production, does not mean the company selling the binocular was tied to preexisting designs.

 

[lmans66]

I am just as comfortable with my Leica Binoculars made in Portugal as Germany for I know that 'as a company' ....Leica is strong and demands quality control. When I look at the quality of my Leicas, ...as well as my cameras, quality control and craftsmanship exude throughout the product. My Noctivids are made in Germany, ...my Ultravid is split between Germany and Portugal and my Trini is Portugal.

Many people forget that Leica Cameras were one time made in Canada, as I have several lens's, made in Canada. They are in no way differently than those made in Germany I imagine. The same holds true with binoculars from Leica.

Bottom line....it is the 'company' that counts, not the country. I see several postings on this thread about GPO's.... I am not overly sure about that product or company, but would hope their quality in the higher brand is top notch. I do know that some of their mid-level bins suffer in some areas such as 'focus play' but hey, they are comfortable with it and are not changing obviously.....so in their minds, 'THAT" play fits into their quality control. But GPO being made in China and then reviewed for final production in another country, well is that 'suspect'? Not sure. Or Maven made in Japan but again, reviewed in San Diego, CA...suspect or not?

The same might hold true for other manufacturers too. It is just if 'you as a consumer' are happy with that quality, be it what it may be. If an Ultravid is made in Portugal or Germany, makes no difference as long as the quality for that 'end product' is the same regardless of what is stamped on the binocular.

Frankly though, if a binocular states Made in China, .....that also implies that quality control is China and 'that'...is not for me.

 

[lmans66]

An interesting take on 'WHY MADE IN PORTUGAL".. apparently all about Tariffs...

 

[Renze de Vries]

My dear friends, how about this? What do you think?

Renze

 

[ZDHart]

My dear friends, how about this? What do you think?

RenzeView attachment 1419958

Sweet! Tell us about them, please.

 

[Patudo]

I am just as comfortable with my Leica Binoculars made in Portugal as Germany for I know that 'as a company' ....Leica is strong and demands quality control...

Be frank with us ... after all's said and done, if you had the choice of a Noctivid or whatever that came from the Leica Wetzlar factory (and marked/verified as such) or from the one in Portugal, for exactly the same price, which would you choose? But of course the flip side to that is that if manufactured in Germany they would probably not be the same price!

-----------------------

Renze, your photo in a single image captures why the Retrovids were brought back and why they still sell today (although one wonders in what quantity). Timeless styling. Are there many examples with "New York" in the label?

PS. the point you made about the slight outward flare in the original Leitz rubber eyecups offering more comfort is very accurate, I think. The rubber eyecups of my old Zeisses all have that slight outward flare and they are the most comfortable (when using binoculars straight to my eyes) eyecups that cut out more light and give the most immersive view. It would not be too difficult for Leica to incorporate something like this into the Retrovid eyecup design, surely...?

 

[Peter Leitzman]

I'm not an absolute authority on Leitz/Leica binoculars. But I've owned several pairs, all made in Portugal and there is nothing at all to be concerned about as opposed to them being made in Germany.

Some of this started many years ago when Leitz started manufacturing some of their 'R' series 35mm camera lenses in Canada. One or two users started being concerned about a possible compromise in image quality...several lenses were subjected to extensive optical and mechanical tests and were found to be indistinguishable from the German ones.

Leica have a reputation to keep and there's no way that they would risk any compromise in order to secure a short term profit.

Rollei did that back in Seventies when they transferred production of their 35mm cameras and lenses to Singapore. Similar tests were done as per the aforementioned Leica. Sadly the Singapore assembled versions weren't as good and immediately their name was compromised.

Enjoy your Noctivids.

They'll be absolutely fine.

 

[MiddleRiver]

My first pair of Trinovids C.1970's was of course made in Portugal. Impeccable quality and lasted until this year when they were upgraded (by another pair of Portugal Trinnies). I 'get' the Made in Germany thing, even though I own a Eurovan and often scratch my head at the absolutely insane lack of common sense. Often wish it was 'Made in Japan'! LOL

I tend to agree with truth-in-advertising but what's troubling to me is that companies have to use that, in order to sway people who would not be happy with Portugal-made items. While it's too bad that Germany has to lose due to tariffs, I have no reason to think Portugal does not have equally skilled staff and employees. I do understand (and to a degree share) concerns about items made in some places like China, but not for quality issues. I vote with my $$ in order to express my concerns with child/slave labor, human-rights issues, etc. But I have no doubt that China too can produce top drawer product if paid to do so.

 

[Paultricounty]

I think it does matter to some people...
Where things are made, or have been made, is always stamped on an item where the manufacturer feels it has pride in it.

I like my watches, so when I wanted a particular Seiko model, it is made in Thailand, but there is a JDM 'Japan Domestic Market' version of the exact same watch. They are identical, but I imported mine from Japan, and it has stamped, very small, 'made in japan' at the bottom of the dial.
This makes a difference to me, and actually the value of the watch.
High end Grand Seiko's are hand built in Japan, if they moved that to say, China or Thailand, the bottom of the market for Grand Seiko would just fall out... regardless of the quality, and they knock spots off Swiss timepeices for quality. But people will still pay Swiss prices because historically Swiss watches are said to be 'better'..... However...I would argue that on my experience!!!!!

I would feel a little short changed if my top end Leica's said Portugal, instead of Germany, because historically, that has been the mark of quality, and Leica are a German company.
I understand there is no optical difference, but high end Japanese optics, for example, are lower priced as a rule, beacause however good they are, they don't have that European optics status, and cannot command those prices..... Nikon EDG's, SE's, have never sold as well as Leica, Zeiss, Swaro etc, and they are spectacular optics, made to the highest tolerances.

Where things are made has always been a perceived mark of quality, justified or not, and it is very hard to change that.

I am guilty..... sorry!!

Very well said, and absolutely true. Even that the quality and performance are exactly the same the perception does have a value to many and I’m sure Leica knows that as well. I’d love to be a fly on the wall when management was discussing the change and how and if they would publicize it.

You could be relatively certain that if sometime in the future it goes back to made in Germany, I would bet that would be part of Leica advertising.

 

[lmans66]

Be frank with us ... after all's said and done, if you had the choice of a Noctivid or whatever that came from the Leica Wetzlar factory (and marked/verified as such) or from the one in Portugal, for exactly the same price, which would you choose? But of course the flip side to that is that if manufactured in Germany they would probably not be the same price!

I am thinking not....to me Leica is Leica and I know what the company represents regardless of if the optic is made in Germany or Portugal or in my camera/ lens...made in Canada. The company has maintained it's image of quality. I also feel that Swaro and Zeiss are equal in that.

I noticed today that one of Leica's camera's (D-lux 7), is now made in China. It is the bottom line of Leica cameras but recently they moved manufacturing from Japan to Canada. I think I would 'not like that'.

So perhaps a bit of bias as to where the production is moved too. Portugal or Canada etc, is okay...Japan is okay. China? ...not sure.

 

[Patudo]

....to me Leica is Leica and I know what the company represents regardless of if the optic is made in Germany or Portugal or in my camera/ lens...

I appreciate the sentiment behind your statements - so if right there in front of you was the choice between a Noctivid or other Leica binocular made in Wetzlar and fully documented as such, and one made in Portugal, you would be absolutely happy to choose them on the flip of a coin, or for the dealer to trot out the exact same spiel you've just given us, while putting the Wetzlar-made unit aside for another customer who (ahem) disagrees with your beliefs? It's easy to speak in generalities - but everything's a little different when it comes down to brass tacks and you're getting ready to part with nearly two thousand sterling...

I suppose the other pertinent question in all this is how much would those who prefer Made in Germany in the sense that we understand it (in other words not as defined by legalese) be willing to pay for it? And for those who complain about inferior quality control, how much would it cost for L/S/Z to tighten up production/quality control so that every unit that left the factory met their standards (up to and including the flashlight test) - and would they be prepared to pay for it?

 

[lmans66]

I appreciate the sentiment behind your statements - so if right there in front of you was the choice between a Noctivid or other Leica binocular made in Wetzlar and fully documented as such, and one made in Portugal, you would be absolutely happy to choose them on the flip of a coin, or for the dealer to trot out the exact same spiel you've just given us, while putting the Wetzlar-made unit aside for another customer who (ahem) disagrees with your beliefs? It's easy to speak in generalities - but everything's a little different when it comes down to brass tacks and you're getting ready to part with nearly two thousand sterling...

I suppose the other pertinent question in all this is how much would those who prefer Made in Germany in the sense that we understand it (in other words not as defined by legalese) be willing to pay for it? And for those who complain about inferior quality control, how much would it cost for L/S/Z to tighten up production/quality control so that every unit that left the factory met their standards (up to and including the flashlight test) - and would they be prepared to pay for it?

Given the cost of inflation that globally we are all apart of or the 'supply chain' issues, I imagine the price of all optics are going up. I would expect that regardless of L/S/Z or Vortex etc. If I know a company is all about quality control, then I am in favor of wherever it might be produced, although again, I just don't trust that made in China.

Case in point....for 'cameras'. ...the fairly cheap Leica d-lux and Panasonic 100 series which are almost identical and were made in Japan in the same factory recently moved the manufacturing of to China. I have to suspect that. If the Leica was made in a different plant than the Panasonic, it might be plausible to believe that quality of control differs, but when made in the same plant, I suspect that.

But if Leica Binoculars are made in Portugal now instead of Germany, and they are made in Leica factories which have been there for xxx years, than I have to believe that quality of control is the same they have always been which to me has been excellent. My M6 Camera plus lens was made in Canada by Leica and I have no issues with quality of control there, so why think Portugal differs.

So, to respond to your direct question, ..."so if right there in front of you was the choice between a Noctivid or other Leica binocular made in Wetzlar and fully documented as such, and one made in Portugal, you would be absolutely happy to choose them on the flip of a coin" My answer is I am happy with either.... jim

 

[ZDHart]

There is a point to perception, even when such perception may quite well be inaccurate.

These days, it's quite possible to establish equivalent production quality anywhere in the world, given proper equipment, proper training of employees, establishment of high standards and full maintenance of such standards.

Our bias toward German manufacturing quality evolved from the past, but doesn't necessarily serve us accurately or effectively today.

I recently ordered a new 2022 BMW X5 M50i. I've learned that BMW's largest plant in the world is in South Carolina and that the X5 (apparently BMW's biggest selling model) is only built in that plant, for export to the rest of the world, including Germany. When you see an X5 on the German Autobahn, it was built in South Carolina. From all that I've been able to learn, production in BMW's South Carolina plant is every bit as good as in their German plants.

The Audi Q7 was the German manufacturer's first SUV, but it has never been manufactured in Germany - they're made in Slovakia.

Mercedes GMB vehicles are made in Mexico.

The Porsche Cayenne comes from Slovakia!

The Toyota GR Supra is made in Austria.

Chevy Trailblazer is made in South Korea.

Jeep Renegade for the US market is made in Mexico.

Dodge Challenger and Charger are made in Canada.

High quality global production has reached significant reality in 2021. (Although Apple's Chinese manufactured products are top-of-the-world in fine quality, I still retain a bias against the majority of Chinese made goods.)

 

[GrampaTom]

It seems rational to be suspicious of changes. Who has experienced a move, change of career, that went perfectly smoothly? That we get nervous over the change of sourcing from one country to another seems explainable, even reasonable, till things are worked out. After years of evolving the former new facility and its processes, with products delivered that prove quality is just fine, (like these made in Portugal Leicas), then continued preferences that we're discussing for country of origin seems less rational, more a belief thing. Whats that quote attributed to Daniel Patrick Moynahan, "You are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts.” We root for the home team. When buying things we root through price. We value soft attributes, like where something is made, as we value hard attributes, like optical quality, fits and finishes. As one who used to set prices, Its challenging to try and figure just how high the market values soft attributes, and how much can be added to the price for these?

 

[Paultricounty]

Given the cost of inflation that globally we are all apart of or the 'supply chain' issues, I imagine the price of all optics are going up. I would expect that regardless of L/S/Z or Vortex etc. If I know a company is all about quality control, then I am in favor of wherever it might be produced, although again, I just don't trust that made in China.

Case in point....for 'cameras'. ...the fairly cheap Leica d-lux and Panasonic 100 series which are almost identical and were made in Japan in the same factory recently moved the manufacturing of to China. I have to suspect that. If the Leica was made in a different plant than the Panasonic, it might be plausible to believe that quality of control differs, but when made in the same plant, I suspect that.

But if Leica Binoculars are made in Portugal now instead of Germany, and they are made in Leica factories which have been there for xxx years, than I have to believe that quality of control is the same they have always been which to me has been excellent. My M6 Camera plus lens was made in Canada by Leica and I have no issues with quality of control there, so why think Portugal differs.

So, to respond to your direct question, ..."so if right there in front of you was the choice between a Noctivid or other Leica binocular made in Wetzlar and fully documented as such, and one made in Portugal, you would be absolutely happy to choose them on the flip of a coin" My answer is I am happy with either.... jim

I would agree with almost everything you said. I have no doubt that The Portuguese Binoculars are indistinguishable from the German ones. Except for labeling of course. I also believe that many people having the choice of either one with a flip of a coin would have no problem with either. But different strokes for different folks. And I am sure that there are many people that would say, I want the German manufactured ones. I don’t want to get too much into car analogies, but that’s why somebody buys a Mercedes or BMW instead of a Lexus. There is a perceived quality advantage, even if it’s not there.

The next thing I think was said in another post by another member, is the fact that when it comes time to sell , some people will want the made in Germany one if they had a choice. I know I would.

You asked if somebody would pay more for German manufacture , it depends on how much more we’re talking about. 5%, 10% hard to say. But consider the fact, we’re already paying premiums just for the brand names.

Paul

 

[ZDHart]

I would agree with almost everything you said. I have no doubt that The Portuguese Binoculars are indistinguishable from the German ones. Except for labeling of course. I also believe that many people having the choice of either one with a flip of a coin would have no problem with either. But different strokes for different folks. And I am sure that there are many people that would say, I want the German manufactured ones. I don’t want to get too much into car analogies, but that’s why somebody buys a Mercedes or BMW instead of a Lexus. There is a perceived quality advantage, even if it’s not there.

The next thing I think was said in another post by another member, is the fact that when it comes time to sell , some people will want the made in Germany one if they had a choice. I know I would.

You asked if somebody would pay more for German manufacture , it depends on how much more we’re talking about. 5%, 10% hard to say. But consider the fact, we’re already paying premiums just for the brand names.

Paul

Yes. But now, some of the most sophisticated and highest performance German vehicles are not made in Germany. (BMW X5 models, including the potent M50i, and Mercedes AMG GLC43 and GLE 63 are made in the USA. See my post, above.)

We "older folks" certainly have the attachment to "Made in Germany", which has been earned over many years, years ago. But in short order... most buyers (younger than we are) will not have that same attachment (which is a perception) that we have. It will all work out in time. In fact, most buyers in the near future won't even have much of a choice as to where their binoculars or anything else, were made - unless they are choosing from "old" outdated models.