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Some additional etymological information – Part I (1 Viewer)

Thanks again, Laurent!

Ok, Adélie Land is named (not the Penguin) after Adèle Dorothée Dumont d’Urville (1778–1842), born Pepin or Pépin [alt. the other way around*].

Not bad! It´s more than we, at least I, used to know!

*In this case I will use the magic (safe and convenient ;)) word "or" ... but, Laurent, which one to favour? Which one should I mention first, the one being the most likely in its original French version? "Pépin or Pepin" vs "Pepin or Pépin"?

I can live with having it either way ... if we don´t know for sure, since this is (like we now have established) a pure "Bird-name-side-track" ... and as I´ll never understand the way French accents work anyway, preferences or not, rules of writing vs common hand-witing etc. etc. … I (on my behalf) will not go any further in this matter. There is still too many, far too many, true first-hand-Bird-name-etymologies waiting to be solved.

If anyone of you guys feel like really sorting it out her Maiden name, I wish you the best of luck! It looks like there´s a need for it …

PS. Laurent, I sure liked your well-spotted, "flipped" cut-out of my tombstone photo, showing the R/P in PERIN/PEPIN not being exactly the same, but a bit narrower, compared with the other R's (which most likely was made by matrix). Indicating it actually not being an R, but a P … very pedagogical!
 
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It is easily possible for someone living in Sydney, Australia to resolve whether in this case Adélie is a diminutive. Personal letters between Adèle and Jules are held in the Dixson Collection of the State Library of NSW. If Jules addresses Adèle as Adélie then the mystery of Hombron and Jacquinot's feminine ending for adeliae will be solved.

Paul
 
Good idea if your in the vicinity ...

PScofield said:
It is easily possible for someone living in Sydney, Australia to resolve whether in this case Adélie is a diminutive. Personal letters between Adèle and Jules are held in the Dixson Collection of the State Library of NSW. If Jules addresses Adèle as Adélie then the mystery of Hombron and Jacquinot's feminine ending for adeliae will be solved.

Paul
Click to expand...

... or Paul, why not Ask a Librarian ... ?
 
Calalp said:
*In this case I will use the magic (safe and convenient ;)) word "or" ... but, Laurent, which one to favour? Which one should I mention first, the one being the most likely in its original French version? "Pépin or Pepin" vs "Pepin or Pépin"?
Click to expand...
What we are seeing here is probably still genuine name "evolution", and I'm not sure it is absolutely necessary to stick to "the original version" in this case... If the 1798 act is representative of anything, then the use of accents appears to have been much more limited at this time than it is now. (Accents seem in fact strictly limited to the final syllable of words.)
The name was presumably pronounced like the noun "pépin" (a pip), and if the presence of an accent in the noun became generalized at this time, it would seem logical that the accent also became used in the name.
 
Thanks, Laurent!

Then I´ll go for: "...Adèle Dorothée Dumont d’Urville (1778–1842), born Pépin (or Pepin)

Cheers!

PS. Her, having both terre Adélie and Cap Pépin named after herself ... two distant, cold and barren places, "uninhabitable to men" ... sure makes you wonder of their Marriage! ;)
 
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Sorry to rehash this issue but thought I would mention that Edward Duyker's masterful scholarly biography of D'Urville Dumont d’Urville: Explorer & Polymath http://www.otago.ac.nz/press/booksauthors/2014/dumont_durville.html establishes beyond doubt that D'Urville did indeed call Adèle by the diminutive Adélie.

I maintain that it simply does not make sense for Hombron and Jacquinot to have named the species, in French, Gorfou d'Adélie (= Adelie's Penguin) if they meant "Gorfou de terra Adélie" (= the Adelie Land penguin). The English name of this penguin should be Adelie's Penguin or alternatively Adele's Penguin.

Paul
 
PScofield said:
Sorry to rehash this issue but thought I would mention that Edward Duyker's masterful scholarly biography of D'Urville Dumont d’Urville: Explorer & Polymath http://www.otago.ac.nz/press/booksauthors/2014/dumont_durville.html establishes beyond doubt that D'Urville did indeed call Adèle by the diminutive Adélie.

I maintain that it simply does not make sense for Hombron and Jacquinot to have named the species, in French, Gorfou d'Adélie (= Adelie's Penguin) if they meant "Gorfou de terra Adélie" (= the Adelie Land penguin). The English name of this penguin should be Adelie's Penguin or alternatively Adele's Penguin.

Paul
Click to expand...
Paul, there´s absolutely no need for any "sorry" when rehashing an issue if you got something new to add on the subject. ;)

But I feel you´ll have to convince us with a somewhat stronger case than the above. Please explain, for us curious ... who hasn´t got nor read the book, how Duyker "establishes beyond doubt that D'Urville did indeed call Adèle by the diminutive Adélie" and exactly why the hitherto existing explanation of Hombron and Jacquinot's name "does not make sense".

And how does that correspond with Laurent's Post No.#15 and the scientific name adeliae (not adelae)?
 
● Bartlett's Tinamou Crypturellus bartletti SCLATER & SALVIN 1873 … etc..

Here´s some additional details on Mr. Bartlett's birth (mentioned in Post # 1: No. 9) …

Edward Bartlett (1844–1908) was born ”25th May 1844” in ”10 Little Russell Street Saint Martin’s in the Fields, Westminster, London”, not in "1836" as is often claimed, which I assume is based on the "about 1836" stated in his Obituary in The Auk (here), an "about" clearly way off (and most often since forgotten and left out).

Edward Bartlett was the eldest son of the more well-known Abraham Dee Bartlett (1812–1897). More on them both; here and here.

Regarding the birth date (and place) of Edward Bartlett I think it´s safe to trust the genealogy-interested Wendy Elizabeth Scott (whom I´ve been in contact with). Her grandmother's grandfather was Clarence Bartlett, younger brother to Edward. Thereby I assume she knows what she´s talking about.

Don’t´t hesitate to prove me, us wrong! (This also goes for the other commemorations mentioned in Post #1)

Björn
 
Yes, I know, Mark, I´ve seen that one.

But try to find any info on that guy, on such a person, with that name ... ;)

Follow any leads or clues that you feel like, from my Post #1 (No. 4), and/or Laurent's Post #3, and I think you will end up with the same result ...


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I will leave the thread Assistance with basic bird etymology of "solifuge", for his issues ... and return to this one, regarding the "Albanian" Mr. "Abdim"/Abidin/Abdin.

Anything new/else found in Le Soudan égyptien sous Mehemet Ali, by Dehérain 1898 (in French) pp.74-76 (here) … ?

And note that also Mehemed Ali [Muhammad Ali (of Egypt)] apparently was of Albanian Heritage, a tradition of Albanian-Egyptian governors/Commanders/Leaders that seems to go back, all the way to Abdurrahman Abdi Pasha the Albanian (1616–1686), also called "El-Arna(v)ut".

I guess (!) "our" guy was a younger "colleague", fellow officer, friend, relative, or likewise, of Ali, but I haven´t found solid proof either way.

Björn

PS. Note that in today's HBW Alive Key James's is now spelling his name "Abdin"!
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@ Björn: no doubt you have read more about this topic than me and all makes sense what you wrote. I agree that with 11 years only he will not be the father of Mr. Abidin.
 
Here it is written (not really new after post of Laurent):

The remainder were either with Ali himself, or with Hassan Pasha and his brother Abdin Bey, acting as the advanced posts of the army to the southward of Taïf.
Click to expand...

And found as well a footnotein Sudan Notes and Records Vol 36 p. 113

Thus Mustafa Pasha in Kordofan, Hasan Pasha in Dongola and Hamza Pasha in Khartoum laboured...
Click to expand...

Very confusing all this similar sounding names.;)
 
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And [here], we have an "Ahmed Taher" (fl. 1803) - Mehemet Ali's brother, who accompanied him to Egypt to fight the French as part of the Albanian contingent.

Mehemet Ali's descendants are listed [here]. Caveat: he's said to have had 17 sons and 13 daughters; the list has only 16 sons and 13 daughters.
(There were indeed other boys between Ismail (b. 1795) and Said (b. 1822), but they all died in infancy.)
 
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‛Ābidin (Abdī) Bey al-Arnaā’ūț (c. 1780–1827), Albanian officer, Brother of Hasan Pasha al-Arnaā’ūț …
Click to expand...
Hill, Richard Leslie. 1967. A Biographical Dictionary of the Sudan, The Second Edition of A Biographical Dictionary of the Anglo-Egyptian Sudan (1951, Clarendon Press, Oxford). Frank Cass & Co. Ltd., London. = here, pp.19-20

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