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The Last Stand of the English Red Squirrel, and my Red Squirrel Quest.... (1 Viewer)

Hi All,

Breffni's contribution was interesting and helpful for Ireland, but it is time to gently correct the inaccuracy re mainland UK. Red squirrels did decline here circa 1700, especially (ironically) in areas they now hold out in (Scotland and Northumberland). However, they didn't die out entirely. That is why there is genetically a British strain in Cumbria quite distinct from a continental strain there (Martin, I think this is what you were referring to, although I had already found it out from my own research last year).

So, Beany, you are quite right to query the "extinct 1700" claim.
 
Just thought you might like to know I have at least six different Reds coming to my feeder, also quite a few young ones. We have greys here but we try to control them.

( Pitlochry Perthshire)
 
Hi Craftycarver,

Yes, that is worth knowing, thanks. It sounds like you have several different families of Reds visiting your garden - and good to see they are still flourishing round you.

Very worrying, thought, that Greys are that far north. Maps that purport to be recent show the only Greys north of the southern lowlands of Scotland are around Aberdeen.

Do you know when the Greys first arrived in Perthsire, and how widespread they are? Have you seen any near your home?
 
Hi Alan,
There have been Greys in P/Shire for the last forty years that I know of, if the timber mix is right the two species seem to get on together.
I had just the one Grey at my feeder, I persuaded it to leave!
I have a small wood at the bottom of my garden, thats where my feeder is so they don't actually have to enter my garden.
I know that the local game keepers are keeping the Grey numbers down, a sort of on going cull.
I hope this info is of some use to you.

Jim.
 
Is this THE best place to see Red Squirrels?

Just got back from a National Trust working holiday at Wallington Hall. Much time spent in the wildlife hide. Red Squirrels are abundant attracted by the peanuts put out on feeders. Peak count was NINE at one time. One little chap practically ran over my hand in the hide. Absolutely rivetting viewing and watching them run along rope and climb into feeders with only the tip of a bushy tail showing is a must see!

Birding was pretty good too - most of the common forest species come to the feeders with very good views of GS Woodies and one good sighting of tree creeper.

Highlight in birding terms was 2 Sparrowhawk incidents. The first one occured when the SP apprently stole prey from a Jay and flew off pursued by a crow.

Second occured on a tranquil afternoon with chaffinches, tits etc feeding happily on the hanging feeders. Suddenly a shadow flashed by and everything scattered. A moment later the Sparrowhawk had performed a 180 and flew off empty handed (taloned?).

Silence in the forest for the next ten minutes and not a bird to be seen or heard, until the first brave chaffinch returned to the feeder. Five minutes later it was as if nothing had happened. Certainly makes you think about the fragility of life for a our little feathered friends!
 

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I forgot to mention that the young Reds get right inside the feeder and have a great time , I feed walnuts, hazel, pine, almond and brazil nuts. Anyone know other food they like?
 
The Forestry Commission Offices at Bellingham in Northumberland recently asked for any dead Red Squirrels found in the Wark/Kielder/Redesdale Forests to be handed in for examination. Apparently parapox is starting to take its toll in these vast forests. Some publicity was given to this request on local radio and television. I saw my first Grey Squirrel on the edge of Kielder Water in 1996. In this area there are dense pine woodlands but the roads are fringed with a variety of broadleaf species.

Harry.
 
Alan Hobson said:
Hi All,

Breffni's contribution was interesting and helpful for Ireland, but it is time to gently correct the inaccuracy re mainland UK. Red squirrels did decline here circa 1700, especially (ironically) in areas they now hold out in (Scotland and Northumberland). However, they didn't die out entirely. That is why there is genetically a British strain in Cumbria quite distinct from a continental strain there (Martin, I think this is what you were referring to, although I had already found it out from my own research last year).

So, Beany, you are quite right to query the "extinct 1700" claim.

Thanks - i'll gently restate my comment:

For Ireland there is no evidence of red squirrels in ireland prior to 1815 when there was a well documented introduction.

For Britain, red squirrel populations were reduced to small pockets in the south of england up to ca 1700 - thereafter there were large scale introductions from continental stock. The red squirrel population in Britain today is derived from continental stock in the vast majority.

That said a small population in Cumbria is genetically distinct from the main British population (does this mean that it is a pure vestige of the origional English stock? Nobody knows as yet).

I could list 20 or so scholarly papers but the most authorative account is given by Oliver Reckham in numerous pubs, notably The English Countryside pg 51 (2000).

Lurz et al and Barrattt et al have done a lot of work on genetic diversity of reds - below are two abstracts (the papers are copyright protected) - i'll leave it to yourself to judge:

*****

Patterns of genetic diversity in the red squirrel (Sciurus vulgaris L.): Footprints of biogeographic history and artificial introductions
Authors: Hale M.L.1; Lurz P.W.W.2; Wolff K.2

Source: Conservation Genetics, Volume 5, Number 2, 2004, pp. 167-179(13)

Abstract:

British S. vulgaris are classified as a separate subspecies, S. v. leucourus, to mainland Europe. While S. vulgaris is not under threat across most of its Eurasian range, in Britain, Ireland and Italy populations are declining, mainly due to the introduction of the American grey squirrel (S. carolinensis). In this study, we conducted an extensive survey of mitochondrial DNA variation in British S. vulgaris populations and a preliminary survey of continental European populations. Our main aims were to determine the extent to which any populations of S. vulgaris in Britain are partially or wholly the product of artificial translocation of red squirrels from continental Europe, and whether continental population variation will provide information on post-glacial reafforestation patterns in Europe. We found that the majority of extant populations of British S. vulgaris are of continental ancestry, many with a very recent (last 40 years) Scandinavian ancestry. The Scandinavian haplotype has rapidly become the most dominant in northeastern Britain, despite not appearing in northern English populations until 1966. This suggests that these squirrels may have an adaptive advantage in the non-native spruce dominated conifer plantations of northern England. Our preliminary examination of continental populations demonstrated that they are sufficiently differentiated to allow a phylogeographic study of this species.

******
Genetic structure of fragmented populations of red squirrel (Sciurus vulgaris) in the UK.

Barratt EM, Gurnell J, Malarky G, Deaville R, Bruford MW.

Institute of Zoology, Regents Park, London, UK.

The relationships among 207 squirrels from 12 locations in the UK and three in mainland Europe were examined using mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) control region sequence. Twenty-six haplotypes were detected, many of which were population specific. Eighty per cent of the populations analysed contained two or more haplotypes. Hierarchical analysis of molecular variance showed the majority of genetic variation to be partitioned among populations. Genetic diversity varied considerably within the UK, and conformed to no obvious geographical trend. The populations in Argyll and Spadeadam Forest showed the highest levels of variation in the UK. However, the greatest genetic diversity was seen in Bavaria, southern Germany where six unique alleles were detected in a sample of 10 individuals. Phylogenetic analysis revealed no evolutionary divergence between UK and mainland European haplotypes. We conclude that, within the UK, the genetic patterns observed are most likely to be explained by the effects of genetic drift which has occurred since the isolation of populations during the past few hundred years, hence we cannot detect any underlying phylogeographic pattern. Therefore, the use of larger, geographically distinct populations within the UK for augmentation of small isolated populations is unlikely to pose problems of genetic incompatibility. Further, the role that demographic factors may have in complicating the application of current genetically based management unit criteria is likely to need further attention.

PMID: 10703551 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 
further to...i saw a red in coniferous woodland near roscrea (centre of ireland) in july (it did not have a white tip on its tail)...and would of course support the sensible conservation of them in both countries, whatever their genetic origin.
 
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Breffni - interesting paper summaries [post 128].

But it needs pointing out that you are not "restating" your comment - you are altering it. There is a difference between your "became extinct" [post 116] and "reduced to small pockets" [post 128].

I'm glad that you now agree that the Reds didn't become extinct in c.1700, as in fact I said all along.
 
Alan Hobson said:
Breffni - interesting paper summaries [post 128].

But it needs pointing out that you are not "restating" your comment - you are altering it. There is a difference between your "became extinct" [post 116] and "reduced to small pockets" [post 128].

I'm glad that you now agree that the Reds didn't become extinct in c.1700, as in fact I said all along.

sure - i take back the comment, and i don't believe that their continental provinence detracts from red squirrels' conservation value either in the uk or in ireland.
 
An update after another county notched up - a Scottish one. Many of you may remember that having done the English counties in my quest, I expanded it to include elsewhere in Britain.

The Red Squirrel in question was in Berwickshire (surely one of the few counties in the world named after a town in a different country!). It was at Paxton House, where my girlfriend and I were told that there would be Red squirrels. As we sat in the hide, a Red came right past the hide within feet of us and grabbed a hazelnut! It was attractive and perky, and a welcome sight.

However, even there the estate has been fighting a rearguard campaign for 12 years to keep out the Greys. And there are still a handful of Greys there, avoiding the anti-Grey measures that have been taken. Further bad news was that in the three quarters of an hour we were in the hide, we only saw the one Red - usually the sign of a small population.

The main part of the trip was to Northumberland, in the Berwick area. Alas, we didn't see any more Reds there to add to the ones we saw in east Northumberland earlier in the year. We did try Hulne Park on the way up this time, as one or two BF'ers had recommended it on this thread, but we didn't see one there (good abbey and trees, though!).

That's about three Scottish counties now where I've seen Reds (the other two up in the Highlands) but as they've changed a lot of the names, I'll have to look up an old map to be sure!
 
breffni Thanks - i'll gently restate my comment: For Ireland there is no evidence of red squirrels in ireland prior to 1815 when there was a well documented introduction. said:
You sure about this? According to Hayden and Harrington, in 'Exploring Irish Mammals' (Town House/Duchas, 2000), Reds, although absent from the archaeological record, appear in historical references in Ireland in AD655, and were abundant enough to support an export trade in pelts up to the 17th Century. They maintain woodland clearance led to an extinction by the end of that Century, but that they were reintroduced from 1815 to 1876. All academic I suppose. I haven't seen one since about 1997, in Glencree. Nice to know, Pianoman, that they're still at Kindlestown. I'll go and check them out.
 
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Sancho said:
breffni Thanks - i'll gently restate my comment: For Ireland there is no evidence of red squirrels in ireland prior to 1815 when there was a well documented introduction. said:
You sure about this? According to Hayden and Harrington, in 'Exploring Irish Mammals' (Town House/Duchas, 2000), Reds, although absent from the archaeological record, appear in historical references in Ireland in AD655, and were abundant enough to support an export trade in pelts up to the 17th Century. They maintain woodland clearance led to an extinction by the end of that Century, but that they were reintroduced from 1815 to 1876. All academic I suppose. I haven't seen one since about 1997, in Glencree. Nice to know, Pianoman, that they're still at Kindlestown. I'll go and check them out.

Touche cher ami: - there is also reference to export trade in beaver, wolf and bear pelts from the same period...all very tantalising but the absence of sub/fossil evidence, though a negative, must be compelling. Certainly academic - for my own part i rather enjoy the greys, as does my daughter: at least you can see them!
 
I thought another report on one of the remaining Red colonies might be useful. In December 2004 my girlfriend and I visited the Red colony near Hawes in North Yorkshire, and saw several Reds there [described in post 80].

Well, last week, a year and a quarter later, we went up again, and I thought people would appreciate the update.

I am pleased to say that we saw Reds again - one on the feeder the landowner has there, and two more in the woods roundabout.

Thus we got the pleasure of excellent views close-up on the feeder, and the excitement of seeing Reds up in the trees in a more natural, harder-to-see state. and it is great to see this colony still flourishing, with no Greys in sight.

However, sad news from South Yorkshire. Some of you may remember from the very first post on this thread that there was until very recently a surviving outpost of Reds in South Yorkshire, near Sheffield.

Well, a short while ago my father and I were walking near there, and passed an isolated copse of coniferous trees. Just the sort of terrain the Reds hold out longest in, and the Greys don't particularly like, and near to a known site of Reds just a few years ago. In other words, the sort of place Reds might conceivably still be located at.

As we passed, I heard the sound of a squirrel chomping nuts or seeds. I waited and listened...and there it was again. And finally, I saw the squirrel - and it was a Grey. So even here the Greys have established themselves, alas. Long may the remaining Red outposts round the country hold out!
 
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Hi Alan,

A small colony of Reds has been discovered in a privately owned wood at Winstanley near Wigan - so it says in the spring edition of Wigan MBC's 'Borough Life' - the only population in Gtr. Manchester. It's mentioned at the bottom of this article but I can't find anything else on the internet:
http://www.wiganmbc.gov.uk/pub/council/borough-life/issue11/wildlife.htm

They're hoping to tempt them into Orrel Water Park with a feeding station, and they're having talks with adjoing St. Helens Council (who also have a small population - Rainford Moss I believe) and Bolton Council who have a captive breeding project for Reds apparently (can't find anything about this either!).

saluki
 
saluki said:
Hi Alan,

A small colony of Reds has been discovered in a privately owned wood at Winstanley near Wigan - so it says in the spring edition of Wigan MBC's 'Borough Life' - the only population in Gtr. Manchester. It's mentioned at the bottom of this article but I can't find anything else on the internet:
http://www.wiganmbc.gov.uk/pub/council/borough-life/issue11/wildlife.htm

They're hoping to tempt them into Orrel Water Park with a feeding station, and they're having talks with adjoing St. Helens Council (who also have a small population - Rainford Moss I believe) and Bolton Council who have a captive breeding project for Reds apparently (can't find anything about this either!).

saluki


Hi Saluki,

Many thanks for yours - very interesting and very helpful. It looks like there is another colony for me to visit - I shall follow it up!
 
Hi Alan

I saw one of the St Helens population last Saturday, which propmpted me to look for something on BF about Reds. I've had a scan thorough the threads to get an idea of where you are up to.

I can give you some info on the Rainford Reds. The one I saw was in a pine wood which is between a nature reserve called Sidings Lane and Dairy Farm Road. You can get some more info from this link. http://www.sthelenswildlife.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/.

This is adjacent to a shooting estate and the area is full of pheasant and partridge. I have spoken to the gamekeeper and he tells me that he keeps the predators, magpies, crows and grey squirrels (not reds), down so this may be part of the reason they are hanging on in the area.

I must say I have only ever seen a few greys around and that was my first red for the area. I don't think they are easy to see around here.

Hope this helps you and good luck
 
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Bill,

Many thanks for your interesting contribution - another thriving colony of Reds is always good news, particularly when it is one holding out among Greys.

However, puzzingly I couldn't find anything about the Reds on the website you gave - a lot about birds [which, as we are talking about this on Bird Forum, I suppose we can't complain about!], insects, etc., but not about Reds. I looked quite hard, but it must be tucked away somewhere. You'd have thought they would highlight it more - glad you did in your posting, though!

Alan
 
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