Uk Peregrine Population Limit? (1 Viewer)

[Osprey_watcher]

Do folks over there who raise pigeons really have a negative attitude towards falcons killing pigeons? The trend here has been more acceptance that hawks,coyotes, falcons, etc. need room to do there own thing .

Some of these pigeons cost thousands of pounds and there is a lot of prize money to be won. That's why the fanciers don't like peregrines having them for breakfast.
Bit strange though, if I had that much money I can think of far better things to spend it on than feeding falcons.8-P

 

[Collster]

That many peregrines in Britain? Give yourselves a well deserved pat on the back. It's a boost in morale to hear such a positive trend.

Pigeons are just not much of a hobby in our city. Between the Merlins in the neighborhoods, the Prairie falcons on the outskirts and the Peregrines on the tall buildings...it's tough to be a pigeon.

Do folks over there who raise pigeons really have a negative attitude towards falcons killing pigeons? The trend here has been more acceptance that hawks,coyotes, falcons, etc. need room to do there own thing . We don't want Wiley Coyote to eat Fluffy but fortunately today the coyote (or falcon, etc.) will get most people coming to his defense. 30 years ago the rifles would have come out. A few years ago there was a fellow on the news who was giving up raising pigeons and he quite magnaminously conceded defeat to the falcons. He said if you have to lose a fight it's not bad to lose for the right reasons.

Anyways, keep up the great conservation efforts. It be great to go birdwatching and hear someone say 'what's that...oh never mind, it's just another Peregrine'.[/QUOTE Yes, unfortunately they do have a negative attitude to Peregrines. In my area i know of no other raptor that fails to breed with success as regularly as the Peregrine falcon. We have people who deny this from their ivory towers , they are of course either blissfully unaware of what goes on in other parts , or they are fully aware and are acting as a buffer trying to deflect blame from the culprits. I'LL HAVE TO DIG OUT AND POST SOME PHOTS OF DEAD PERRYS I'VE FOUND OVER THE YEARS, perhaps this will convince certain people as to the reality of whats been done in the name of their hobby

 

[Jane Turner]

Yes, unfortunately they do have a negative attitude to Peregrines. In my area i know of no other raptor that fails to breed with success as regularly as the Peregrine falcon. We have people who deny this from their ivory towers , they are of course either blissfully unaware of what goes on in other parts , or they are fully aware and are acting as a buffer trying to deflect blame from the culprits. I'LL HAVE TO DIG OUT AND POST SOME PHOTS OF DEAD PERRYS I'VE FOUND OVER THE YEARS, perhaps this will convince certain people as to the reality of whats been done in the name of their hobby

Sicking as it is, I was under the impression that human persecution had little or no effect of Peregrine breeding population.


BWP:

Limited evidence suggests numbers relatively little affected by intense human persecution in some areas in 19th and 20th centuries (may even have increased locally, e.g. East Germany), though marked temporary decline in parts of Britain 1939–45 due to official control measures.

 

[London Birder]

I've yet to meet anyone working with Peregrine (not that I've met that many) who hasn't got a persecution/nest-robbery tale to tell ...

 

[Collster]

Sicking as it is, I was under the impression that human persecution had little or no effect of Peregrine breeding population.


BWP:

If you believe that maybe i can arrange a tour of nest sites next season. I know of nests that are targetted every season , they always fail to fledge young , this nonsense goes on over a large area of the SouthWales valleys , year after year so i would guess that the numbers in these areas are kept artificially low by these idiots. The turnover of adults at sites in these areas is amazing for a bird that usually lives a while. I WONDER WHATS HAPPENING TO THEM? A few years ago most local Peregrines were doing ok , but once an eyrie is discovered it is hammered year after year without fail. If this doesnt have any affect on the population then i dont know what does

 

[Collster]

At the conclusion of his piece concerning The British Population Trend of Peregrine Falcons in The State Of The Nation's Birds, the late Chris Mead posed the question;

Is 2,000 Pairs The Limit?

What was his reason for mentioning this and what were his possible concerns?

See http://www.birdcare.com/bin/showsonb?peregrine for reference.

Come on Anthony , you started the thread its only right that we have your slant on things. Or are you just hoping that the rest of us will argue amongst ourselves?

 

[Jane Turner]

If you believe that maybe i can arrange a tour of nest sites next season. I know of nests that are targetted every season , they always fail to fledge young , this nonsense goes on over a large area of the SouthWales valleys , year after year so i would guess that the numbers in these areas are kept artificially low by these idiots. The turnover of adults at sites in these areas is amazing for a bird that usually lives a while. I WONDER WHATS HAPPENING TO THEM? A few years ago most local Peregrines were doing ok , but once an eyrie is discovered it is hammered year after year without fail. If this doesnt have any affect on the population then i dont know what does

I did not for a second suggest that it was the right thing to do - I was pointing out the stupidity, immorality illegality and downright pointlessness of the action of the idiots we both abhor! The first part of the argument is however exactly the same for peregrines as it is for songbirds eaten by raptors. The number of breeding pairs will be unaffected by the predation/illegal killing. It would take a huge effort of systematic nest robbing and shooting of adults (as carried out by the MOD in the war years) to result in a reduction in Peregrine population. First year "natural" mortality rate is 70% in a wide range of regions and habitats.


Unfortunately unlike Peregrines, the breeding success of nest robbers is unaffected by a decline in their victims, though personally I would advocate castration as a suitable punishment, just in case the desire to persecute raptors is an inheritable gene!

Up in North Wales/Cheshire, the Peregrines are doing very well. I am lucky enough to be on the border of three territories. Both they and Ravens ae making excellent use of man-made nest sites in addition to their traditional cliff sites.

 

[Anthony Morton]

Close to 30 postings already, yet only 5 have even bothered to answer the original question. My thanks to Ben O (Posting #3), Richard D (#6), Jane Turner (#9), jurek (#11) and colonelboris (#12) for their input.

To those who thought there was a hidden agenda in my original posting, there wasn't - just curiosity regarding Chris Mead's question; Is 2,000 pairs (of Peregrine Falcons) the limit?

Rather impolitely I felt, 'valley boy' asks for (demands?) my slant on this question. Quite simply I haven't got one and was hoping to learn something from the answers given. If I was pushed, however, I would say that there are perhaps three very basic answers to this question; a) Yes, 2,000 pairs is enough b) No it's not and c) I don't know, with perhaps additional comments regarding population density, suitable nesting sites, availability of food etc. to support your choice.

That said, was there really any need for some of the 'squit' that's been posted? Whatever happened to the old BF adage;

PLAY THE POST, NOT THE POSTER?

 

[Edward woodwood]

To those who thought there was a hidden agenda in my original posting, there wasn't - just curiosity regarding Chris Mead's question; Is 2,000 pairs (of Peregrine Falcons) the limit?

well, no is the answer, and you've had that a few times, so what's up?

 

[Hill_Walker]

There will never be enough Peregrines to completly kill off the UK Pigeon population, thats ridiculous, the reason of course is that man will interfere before it ever gets close, and how will man interfere?
Well because most are more fascinated (not to mention the downside of robbing for money) about the Peregrine than the pigeon, for example how many posts do we see, 'Peregrine spotted near where i live' etc etc, rather than ' Fat wobbly pigeon sighted near my neck of the woods' ;-)
Unfortunately its this fascination that also brings all the bad eggs into the equation.


Sorry if i've gone off topic here but i've only had an hours kip

 

[Osprey_watcher]

Sorry if i've gone off topic here but i've only had an hours kip

Are all those wood pigeons keeping you awake?

 

[nirofo]

Sicking as it is, I was under the impression that human persecution had little or no effect of Peregrine breeding population.


BWP:

The sad fact is the demise of the Peregrine is almost entirely down to human persecution both directly and indirectly. Directly through shooting, poisoning, egg stealing, young stealing etc, indirectly through the use of DDT and similar chemicals that impinge on the food chain and either kill the adults or the young or both.

Whilst the indirect poisoning through DDT and other chemicals has largely died out now, unfortunately direct killing has not and is as prevalent now as it ever was.

nirofo.

 

[Mike Johnston]

From the BBC website:

Bitter battle of birds in Mournes

An increasingly bitter war is taking place between bird lovers in County Down's Mourne Mountains. The BBC has learned that the sky above the Silent Valley is the scene of a battle pitting peregrine falcon conservationists against racing pigeon enthusiasts.


Peregrine falcon numbers in the Mournes have plummeted

The peregrine falcon, which is protected by law, is one of the world's fastest hunters and when the bird of prey swoops on a flock of pigeons, the results are devestating. However, the falcons are now falling prey to an equally deadly human hunter.

Conservationists believe a "hit man" has been hired to shoot the birds of prey and they are pointing the finger at the racing pigeon world. A racing flightpath goes through the Mournes attracting hundreds of birds every weeekend. Pigeon fancier John Millar said while he would not condone the shooting of the falcons, some other pigeon owners might be tempted.

"The peregrines are waiting for them coming. They know their line of flight and they just dive into the middle of that flock and they are decimated.

"The peregrine falcon is a protected bird, but it is quite possible that some people could take the law into their own hands, which we would not encourage them to do.

"If somebody has lost valuable pigeons, they will try and remedy it," Mr Millar said.


Jim Wells said several peregrines had been killed

Jim Wells, of the Raptor Study Group, said he believed several falcons had been killed.

"We believe that a hit man has been hired to shoot as many peregrines as possible in south Down and
south Armagh.

"We believe that he may have already killed 30 birds. That is having a devastating impact on the
population of this area," Mr Wells said.

When adult birds are killed their chicks are left to starve to death.

Another conservationist said he believed he had prevented the killing of the last surviving pair of breeding peregrines in the Mournes.

"I noticed on the cliffs above the nest site a man in camouflage gear holding a shotgun," he said.

"He was basically camouflaging himself completely and lying down in the heather above the nest preparing to shoot these birds."

The conservationist, who did not want to be identified, said that when he challenged the man he ran away.


Peregrine numbers, once healthy, have crashed in the Mournes, and conservationists are now guarding the only remaining nest with chicks.

 

[StevieEvans]

PLAY THE POST, NOT THE POSTER?

NB. Whatever happened to the old BF adage;

A LEOPARD NEVER CHANGES HIS WOODEN STiRiNG SPOON. (Sorry SPOTS) 3


The only real rise we've seen in Peregrine no's is in lowland areas.

But people there still go to enormous lengths to try to get rid of Peregrines..............

.............including flying an Eagle Owl at the breeding pair to disrupt nesting.......... :eek!:
Steve

 

[Jane Turner]

The sad fact is the demise of the Peregrine is almost entirely down to human persecution both directly and indirectly. Directly through shooting, poisoning, egg stealing, young stealing etc, indirectly through the use of DDT and similar chemicals that impinge on the food chain and either kill the adults or the young or both.

Whilst the indirect poisoning through DDT and other chemicals has largely died out now, unfortunately direct killing has not and is as prevalent now as it ever was.

nirofo.

Agree completely about the DDT.

 

[Collster]

Anthony i cant give you an answer for the rest of the country, but i would say that the Peregrine had reached maximum density down this way about five years ago. Up until that time we were finding new pairs every year, then it tapered off. The expansion down here was due mainly to the vast amount of un tapped food namely Rp. Other mainstays of their diet are jackdaw ,starlings, pipits and the odd corvid also woodcock when in. As you will know there has been a serious decline in the number of fanciers keeping RP in the valleys, this has led to a delay (most seasons of about 2 to 3 weeks) in the laying dates of Perrys as i dont believe they can get into laying condition due to lack of grub. There are also pairs that have dropped out of areas altogether due to the lack of wild birds and the fact there are no RP to eat. The unions were also advised to alter routes ,and a few other steps that would lessen the impact on their birds. During this study it was also found that a significant number of RP kills at Peregrine sites were birds that had already got lost and not returned to the loft when racing months before. So these birds wouldn't have returned anyway even if they hadn't been eaten .This info of when the birds were lost was supplied by Fanciers taking part in the study, so it is from the horses mouth. There are also several other sites that would do well every season but for the hand of man ,and it is this action , coupled with the aforementioned points that will soon cause a decline in Perry numbers in this and other areas. Hope this isn't seen as more squit

 

[Keith Glasgow]

From the BBC website:

Bitter battle of birds in Mournes

A percentage of that you can take with a pinch of salt!

Certainly Co Down and Armagh have suffered in the past, more than the rest of the country, and the Mournes are situated on a major flightpath for rac.pig.
This year a number of traditional sites in this region haven't been occupied, and the cause is likely persecution. However, to say that there's only one remaining nest left in the Mournes is not true. Normally, there's 15/16 sites, and I understand most this year have been successful.

Zek.

 

[Mike Johnston]

From the BBC website:

Bitter battle of birds in Mournes

A percentage of that you can take with a pinch of salt!

Certainly Co Down and Armagh have suffered in the past, more than the rest of the country, and the Mournes are situated on a major flightpath for rac.pig.
This year a number of traditional sites in this region haven't been occupied, and the cause is likely persecution. However, to say that there's only one remaining nest left in the Mournes is not true. Normally, there's 15/16 sites, and I understand most this year have been successful.

Zek.

Understand from who?

 

[Keith Glasgow]

Understand from who?

Those who study Peregrines here.

Zek

 

[Mike Johnston]

Those who study Peregrines here.

Zek

Wouldn't that be the N.I. Raptor Study Group, the ones who are expressing concern. Surely, if there was nothing to worry about, they would say so, or else challenge the comments of their member Jim Wells and the un-named conservationist.