Water Pipit? (1 Viewer)

[Stephen Dunstan]

Tim,

I don't have the pipits and wagtails book and can't remember exactly what it says, but isn't the Macmillan Guide referring to birds now in races of their own - i.e. meinertzhaeni and kleinschmidtii. Or are these discounted now?

Stephen.

 

[Edward woodwood]

Macmillan doesn't mention any races at all. The races u mention are only from very northerly islands (Faroes, Shetland etc) and are now usually synonymised with petrosus (this is the treatment of Alstrom and mild)

other ssp have been described in the past incl. one from northern France that is maybe a bit closer to littoralis that petrosus......

Lars jonsson also states 'varies in appearance'

and Lars' Water Pipit is rather close to the initial bird we are discussing....which if it has white outers is very interesting.....

 

[Stephen Dunstan]

It is interesting how these forms are being lumped when Herring Gulls and the like are going the other way. Has anyone done any DNA analysis?

I think I'll watch this debate from the pavillion now - my head hurts!

Stephen.

 

[Binocularface]

As far as I am aware petrosus occurs in Britain and Northern France. According to HBI meinertzhageni occurs in the Outer Hebrides (although Michael Frankis informed me in another thread that this form had been discredited). Also according to HBI kleinschmidti occurs on Shetland, Faeroes and possibly Orkney and St Kilda.

Both meinertzhageni and kleinschmidti are generally darker overall and yellower below than petrosus and so quite different from littoralis.

Littoralis is predominantly found in Scandinavia and North West Russia.

So is it not possible that meinertzhageni and kleinschmidti are the result of clinal differences from petrosus at the opposite end of the spectrum to littoralis?

Although as far as I am aware this is not reflected at the littoralis end of the spectrum!

I hope all this make sense (I think I've just confused myself now!)

Regards
Tristan

 

[Darrell Clegg]

As Tim has mentioned, Alstrom and Mild recognise only two subspecies littoralis and petrosus kleinschmidti and meinertzhageni are now considered to be synonomous with petrosus

Interestingly they say
"In winter petrosus tends to be marginally more buffish-tinged below, with a browner tone to breast sides and flanks. Also the dark streaks below are marginally larger and more coalescent in petrosus than in littoralis. However, single specimens of petrosus and littoralis cannot be reliably separated in winter plumage " (my emphasis)

Alstrom and Mild. Pipits & Wagtails of Europe, Asia and North America. Helm 2003 p167.


This is getting more like ID frontiers every day!!

Darrell

 

[HH75]

Hi all,
I'd say that the situation with petrosus and littoralis Rock Pipits may be analagous to that shown by argenteus and argentatus Herring Gulls,with birds from either end of the cline being distinguishable in the field,but many 'intermediate' birds being best left unidentified?
After all,there ARE obvious pale 'Water-like' Rock Pipits with white outer tail feathers,and one would assume that these are 'extreme' littoralis?A colour-ringing program of such pale birds on their winter quarters,while unlikely to generate many sightings on the breeding grounds,could provide some concrete answers....
Harry

 

[SRWilliams]

Hi Everyone

I have been looking for Scandy Rocks at Hilbre for a few years now. We have a passage of Rocks through in October and some stay to winter...However, as Jane is aware - she has scored (at Hoylake only 1 mile east of Hilbre), I have (thus far) failed. But is this surprising?

I read somewhere recently that wintering petrosus prefer Rocky coastline (similar to their breeding habitat - and apparently not that far away; although I'm not convinced by that yet!) whereas wintering litoralis prefer coastal saltmarsh (Hoylake!) Anyway, I'll keep trying and my fellow Hilbre goers will continue to put out the potter traps in the hope of catching a litoralis (but will we know it when we do?)

Despite all this, I am preparing an article for March's Birding North West magazine (www.birdingnorthwest.org.uk) on ID of Scandy Rock - so if any of you have any images of Rock, Scandy or Water - please email me. So I'm not going to say what I think Steve's original bird is; other than it is not, in my humble opinion, a Water Pipit.

However, I have seen up to three Water Pipits at that site - so they do exist (alongside Rocks). And there will be photos of Water Pipits from Neston Old Quay in the article to prove it... Keep this thread going as by now if it is a Scandy it should be coming into sum plum, so I'll go and check it out (along with my potter trap!)

Cheers

Steve

 

[CJW]

Hi Steve and welcome to Bird Forum from all the Moderators and Admin. Staff.
I'm sure your experience and knowledge on all things birding will be a great asset to the site.
Hope the magazine is going well (I do hope to subscribe, honestly!)

Chris

 

[Jane Turner]

I think the situation with petrosus and littoralis is a bit like that between abientinus and tristis Chiffchaffs...ie clinal, loads of intermediates and no hard and fast criteria in winter plumage. That means that at best, even with the extremes, its probably safer to say "showing characteristics of."

That said, my rather pragmatic approach is :

1. If its dirty brown and smudgy all over, without any white at all in the TF and its right on top of a breeding site for petrosus....its probably safe to assume its pertrosus.

2. If it has extensive white in the outer TF, a good super and a contrastly pale throat....and its not right on top a regular petrosus beeding site, it probably safe to assume its littoralis.

 

[Cuckoo-shrike]

Water Pipit

Had a Water Pipit on the Lizard this morning, a super bird in full summer plumage. Seems incredibly late. Are they often seen in the UK in early May??
Andy

 

[Jane Turner]

No... they normally clear out mid April

 

[Darrell Clegg]

Had a Water Pipit on the Lizard this morning, a super bird in full summer plumage. Seems incredibly late. Are they often seen in the UK in early May??
Andy

Another Windmill Farm record Andy?

Certainly no Pipits at this end of the county. I'm suppering from post Pipit blues :-C

Darrell

 

[Cuckoo-shrike]

Another Windmill Farm record Andy?

Certainly no Pipits at this end of the county. I'm suppering from post Pipit blues :-C

Darrell

Yes of course Darrell! Couldn't produce anything much of note for the field meeting this morning though. The Iberian Chiffchaff seems to have moved on.
Don't worry, only another six months and you can start grilling Rockits again!
Andy

 

[Darrell Clegg]

Thanks Andy - can't wait!!!

Did I really type "suppering" instead of "suffering" - see this lack of Pipits is affecting my brain.

Darrell