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Which camera? (1 Viewer)

DazA

Member
United Kingdom
There are times I'm out bird watching and am unable to identify a bird. So, I am after a camera where by I can take a photo good enough to identify the bird. I have my binoculars and scope, so nothing to big or bulky. I would appreciate advice, guidance and opinions on which camera would fulfil this roll.
Many thanks
Darren
 
Welcome to BirdForum Darren. It would probably help to give an idea of how much you'd be willing to spend on a camera system. There are lots of options but different budgets will get you different things.
 
I would go one step further. It sounds like you are more after identification than after the best possible photographic quality. That also jibes with the lower weight you wish for. Therefore, I will recommend that you look at bridge cameras. Panasonic, nikon and canon have models you might consider. (sony also but the Rx 10-4 is likely more expensive and heavy than you want).
Check for example these threads
Niels
 
Thank you for your responses. £1000 ish. A bridge camera seems a logical choice. It is for identification purposes only, not super dooper action shots and top quality sellable image's.
 
The RX10m4 would be the obvious starting point, the sensor is larger and faster than the other possibles and the AF is good. There's a "like new" one on MBP (huge seller of used cameras) at £1149 and Grey new ones (so not imported by Sony UK and they may not touch it if there's a problem) go for about £1219.

Review:

The Nikon P950 gives oodles of reach (not as much as the P1000, but that's huge), image quality suffers from the really small sensor. Discontinued but will be available used (edit - or new/grey it seems).

The Canon PowerShot SX70 HS is a cheaper still option, although the AF isn't as good as some others I gather::

Compare sizes here (I put a few get-you-started ones, they didn't have the P950 but IIRC it's the same as the P900):

Also consider shooting Raw images as the latest DXO Photolab software's "Deep Prime XD" noise reduction can rescue what look like very bad images.
 
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The sony and nikon cameras are considerably heavier than those from panasonic and canon.
Niels
Swings and roundabout - Sony has a massively larger and faster readout sensor so get better quality images, the P950 zooms (nearly) forever... trade-off..
 
I would like to thank everyone for the advice and guidance, very much appreciated. The Sony RX10 IV is looking a good choice.
 
Generally Sony only provide a basic manual with the RX cameras and complicated questions are answered by an online "Help Guide".
Also note while the world calls it the RX10IV or mkIV Sony uses m4 and you'll have trouble finding stuff on their web site otherwise.
The RX10m4 stuff is here, including a link to the help guide:
I have the small RX100m5 which is basically the same sensor and processor, different lens tho... I found the Friedman book helpful as Sony do some very weird things in the menus, and he does have a RX10m4 version:
Do check you're okay humping the weight though!
Oh and if you're in London sometime Ralph Hancock of Kensington Gardens and Hyde Park birds has one and a Sony A7rIV with the 200-600 and is in the park (mostly Kensington Gardens) every day, sometime with both.
Good luck :)
 
The RX10m4 would be the obvious starting point, the sensor is larger and faster than the other possibles and the AF is good. There's a "like new" one on MBP (huge seller of used cameras) at £1149 and Grey new ones (so not imported by Sony UK and they may not touch it if there's a problem) go for about £1219.

Review:

The Nikon P950 gives oodles of reach (not as much as the P1000, but that's huge), image quality suffers from the really small sensor. Discontinued but will be available used (edit - or new/grey it seems).

The Canon PowerShot SX70 HS is a cheaper still option, although the AF isn't as good as some others I gather::

Compare sizes here (I put a few get-you-started ones, they didn't have the P950 but IIRC it's the same as the P900):

Also consider shooting Raw images as the latest DXO Photolab software's "Deep Prime XD" noise reduction can rescue what look like very bad images.
What is a "raw" image?
And
Is the photo lab software free and easy to use?
 
A digital camera records the amount of light hitting its sensor pixels and does various computer shenanigans and produces an image, usually in jpeg format. In doing so it "throws away" much of the actual data that it gathered and it deems not necessary.

Many digital cameras offer one the option for the camera to do no processing and just save all the data it recorded. These files are known as RAW files, they are strictly not images. One can then use ones skills and experience to do the processing ones self and try to attain a better image that the camera processing could. The camera makers offer their own free software to do this, but there are more capable paid for and open source options available.

The advantages of RAW are ... you can get a better photo; you can process the same image in different ways for different goals (a photo intended for HQ printing will need different processing for a screen sized web photo).

The disadvantage of RAW are ... you can't just copy the photo off the camera and stick in on Facebook you have to process every photo (although most programs have an "auto" button that mimics the processing that would have been done on the camera); they are much bigger files and take longer to save, although this is less of a problem now than it was in the past.

RAW can often be seen as part of the "curse of the amateur", one spends ages fettling a photo to give you that 99.9% version when the 97% version the camera produced would have been fine. I know 3 professional photographers, none of them shoot RAW, content and composition will always win.

I wouldn't view RAW as a deal breaker, but most half-decent cameras will offer it anyway. You don't have to use it but you can't if you don't have it.
 
Most cameras offer the option of saving both raw and jpg in the camera. That means you have a ready to go image and can return to the raw if and when you get familiar with the necessary software.
Niels
 
Slightly techy stuff follows, I'm calming down before wading through a ton of images - had an amazing time photographing Little Owls... really amazing... (little bit fried standing in a field for some time, they didn't bring me in on the decision about where to nest though).

So the way all the colour sensors in the cameras mentioned above work is they divide the sensor into 2x2 groups of pixels (5M groups in a 20MP sensor). On one diagonal of the group both pixels have a Green filter over them and on the other diagonal one pixel has a Blue filter and one a Red (it's called a Bayer pattern after the guy at Kodak who invented it, you get more Green pixels as the human visual system is most sensitive there). Hence the sensor has 10M Green pixels and 5M of each of Red and Blue. Then it combines this information to make a colour image (will be the same pixel size as the sensor, so 20MP in this case) and saves it in typically a JPEG file with 8 bits (256 levels) of brightness information. The data from the sensor will usually be either 12 bits (4,096 levels) or 14 bits (16,384 levels) per pixel. A Raw file is just saving this data off the sensor so you have a lot more information to work with if you want to modify the image later (lighten the dark bits, etc.) You can do some work with the JPEG, but how much depends how much it was compressed, as JPEG compression works by throwing away the stuff you can't see, which means if you want to see it (such as brightening the shadows, as mentioned) then you may find a lot of the data you want isn't there.

DXO Photolab isn't free and needs a computer. It's a little techy, but you can ignore 95% of it to fix simple things. There are many other Raw processing tools out there, but DXO probably has the best noise reduction, by some way. Topaz has some easy to use products, but Photo AI is just a mess (new version every week at the moment, been awhile since a good one) and Denoise AI only does what it says on the tin. You're never far away from a sale on either product so never pay full price. If you might want to put images on the Internet then I'd be tempted to shoot Raw+JPEG (so you get 2 files per image, you can just shoot one or the other) and then worry about what to do with the Raw file if you get an image you really want to improve (so leave software decisions for now).

P.S. Raw files usually have a JPEG embedded in them, but some cameras put a good JPEG and some a smaller and more compressed one. You can use software like "Instant JPEG From RAW" (free) to extract the JPEG if you mistakenly shot Raw only and don't want to mess with processing the Raw file just then.
(Edit) I see my RX100m5 only saves a 1616x1080 pixel JPEG in its Raw files. I'd assume the RX10m4 is the same. So that wouldn't be much use. My Panasonic GH5 does 1920x1440 and my Canon 5Dsr 8688x5792, so Canon for the win, or the loss for increased Raw file size...

P.P.S. The RX10m4 doesn't write to memory cards that quickly, so buying a fast card is a waste of money, unless you want to read data off it very quickly in a card reader. UHS-II speed cards make no difference, so not worth it:
(You only care about the rightmost column.)
 
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Generally Sony only provide a basic manual with the RX cameras and complicated questions are answered by an online "Help Guide".
Also note while the world calls it the RX10IV or mkIV Sony uses m4 and you'll have trouble finding stuff on their web site otherwise.
The RX10m4 stuff is here, including a link to the help guide:
I have the small RX100m5 which is basically the same sensor and processor, different lens tho... I found the Friedman book helpful as Sony do some very weird things in the menus, and he does have a RX10m4 version:
Do check you're okay humping the weight though!
Oh and if you're in London sometime Ralph Hancock of Kensington Gardens and Hyde Park birds has one and a Sony A7rIV with the 200-600 and is in the park (mostly Kensington Gardens) every day, sometime with both.
Good luck :)

The Sony Help Guide is massive, maybe 20x more pages than the user manual and is correspondingly more instructive.
However, the Friedman book is a lot more readable
The Help Guide is not especially aimed at the novice, rather more to support the experienced photographer who aims to optimize his setup.
 
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Also with the RX10m4 you could consider getting a spare battery (actually for any of the cameras discussed here), as if you forget to charge the camera it could run out quickly, plus if you use it a lot it will regardless. There is a special caveat with the RX10m4 as it can be powered and/or run from a USB power pack, so if you have one of those, and it's light enough to carry around, then you're probably okay (or you might prefer getting one rather than a second battery, being more generally useful, plus a longer USB charge cable).

I should also have pointed out that it is possible to download a pdf version of the Help Guide (though it's really designed for web navigation the info is in there) by clicking the "Printable PDF" button at the top right of the Guide's page - DSC-RX10M4 | Help Guide | Top

(Edit) P.S. Another belated thought, Capture One (who make an expensive Raw processing program) do a free version for Sony called Capture One Express which is enormously stripped down but quite simple to use to fix too light/dark scenes and many other things. The only down-side is the noise reduction is way behind several others (and the smaller the sensor the noisier the images - I can explain why if anyone cares, although usually not an issue unless it's fairly dark or you need a high shutter speed for BIF etc.). It does easily enable people to make images with some nice "pop" though (I have the full version, but mostly use DXO). Well worth getting IMHO.
 
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A digital camera records the amount of light hitting its sensor pixels and does various computer shenanigans and produces an image, usually in jpeg format. In doing so it "throws away" much of the actual data that it gathered and it deems not necessary.

Many digital cameras offer one the option for the camera to do no processing and just save all the data it recorded. These files are known as RAW files, they are strictly not images. One can then use ones skills and experience to do the processing ones self and try to attain a better image that the camera processing could. The camera makers offer their own free software to do this, but there are more capable paid for and open source options available.

The advantages of RAW are ... you can get a better photo; you can process the same image in different ways for different goals (a photo intended for HQ printing will need different processing for a screen sized web photo).

The disadvantage of RAW are ... you can't just copy the photo off the camera and stick in on Facebook you have to process every photo (although most programs have an "auto" button that mimics the processing that would have been done on the camera); they are much bigger files and take longer to save, although this is less of a problem now than it was in the past.

RAW can often be seen as part of the "curse of the amateur", one spends ages fettling a photo to give you that 99.9% version when the 97% version the camera produced would have been fine. I know 3 professional photographers, none of them shoot RAW, content and composition will always win.

I wouldn't view RAW as a deal breaker, but most half-decent cameras will offer it anyway. You don't have to use it but you can't if you don't have it.
Thank for your excellent explanation. Really appreciated 👍
 
Slightly techy stuff follows, I'm calming down before wading through a ton of images - had an amazing time photographing Little Owls... really amazing... (little bit fried standing in a field for some time, they didn't bring me in on the decision about where to nest though).

So the way all the colour sensors in the cameras mentioned above work is they divide the sensor into 2x2 groups of pixels (5M groups in a 20MP sensor). On one diagonal of the group both pixels have a Green filter over them and on the other diagonal one pixel has a Blue filter and one a Red (it's called a Bayer pattern after the guy at Kodak who invented it, you get more Green pixels as the human visual system is most sensitive there). Hence the sensor has 10M Green pixels and 5M of each of Red and Blue. Then it combines this information to make a colour image (will be the same pixel size as the sensor, so 20MP in this case) and saves it in typically a JPEG file with 8 bits (256 levels) of brightness information. The data from the sensor will usually be either 12 bits (4,096 levels) or 14 bits (16,384 levels) per pixel. A Raw file is just saving this data off the sensor so you have a lot more information to work with if you want to modify the image later (lighten the dark bits, etc.) You can do some work with the JPEG, but how much depends how much it was compressed, as JPEG compression works by throwing away the stuff you can't see, which means if you want to see it (such as brightening the shadows, as mentioned) then you may find a lot of the data you want isn't there.

DXO Photolab isn't free and needs a computer. It's a little techy, but you can ignore 95% of it to fix simple things. There are many other Raw processing tools out there, but DXO probably has the best noise reduction, by some way. Topaz has some easy to use products, but Photo AI is just a mess (new version every week at the moment, been awhile since a good one) and Denoise AI only does what it says on the tin. You're never far away from a sale on either product so never pay full price. If you might want to put images on the Internet then I'd be tempted to shoot Raw+JPEG (so you get 2 files per image, you can just shoot one or the other) and then worry about what to do with the Raw file if you get an image you really want to improve (so leave software decisions for now).

P.S. Raw files usually have a JPEG embedded in them, but some cameras put a good JPEG and some a smaller and more compressed one. You can use software like "Instant JPEG From RAW" (free) to extract the JPEG if you mistakenly shot Raw only and don't want to mess with processing the Raw file just then.
(Edit) I see my RX100m5 only saves a 1616x1080 pixel JPEG in its Raw files. I'd assume the RX10m4 is the same. So that wouldn't be much use. My Panasonic GH5 does 1920x1440 and my Canon 5Dsr 8688x5792, so Canon for the win, or the loss for increased Raw file size...

P.P.S. The RX10m4 doesn't write to memory cards that quickly, so buying a fast card is a waste of money, unless you want to read data off it very quickly in a card reader. UHS-II speed cards make no difference, so not worth it:
(You only care about the rightmost column.)
Thank you for your detailed explanation. I very much appreciate it. I haven't seen a little owl in year's. Beautiful little birds.
 

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