Leica, Nikon, Swarovski, Zeiss 8x20 (1 Viewer)

Jonathan B. · May 2, 2004

I own Leica 8x20 and have used it almost daily for four years. It is a great performer for its tiny size, but it flares quite badly when viewing anywhere near the sun. This is obviously annoying when using it early or late in the day.

I would like to know from those who own Zeiss Victory, Nikon HG, and Swarovksi 8x20 whether those binoculars also exhibit pronounced flare.

mike60 · May 2, 2004

I've just bought nikon 8x20hg after comparing a few of the 8x20s you mention, and have been using them a lot over the last few days. This morning, i was looking over the ocean at sea bird, ships etc, and viewing towards the reflected sunlight off the ocean which is usually very challenging for most bins i have tried. I think i did notice slightly more flare than some full size bins, but it was still very acceptable and comfortable viewing. I am very impressed with how these little bins perform - way beyond what i would have expected from an 8x20. Perhaps you could look towards something located close to a strong light source in a store, to make a comparison?

Leif · Aug 10, 2004

Jonathan B. said:
I own Leica 8x20 and have used it almost daily for four years. It is a great performer for its tiny size, but it flares quite badly when viewing anywhere near the sun. This is obviously annoying when using it early or late in the day.

I would like to know from those who own Zeiss Victory, Nikon HG, and Swarovksi 8x20 whether those binoculars also exhibit pronounced flare.

The Zeiss 8x20 Classic also exhibits pronounced flare in the situation you mention. Allowing one hand to extend beyond the objectives and thus act as a sun shield cures the problem.

Leif

danhdz · Aug 11, 2004

Hi,

I'm new to the forums. I had a similar problem with my recently purchased Swarovski 8x20, so I've just returned them to the dealer and am getting a new pair (they were out of stock). They were practically useless unless I was under heavy cover. Even when not looking anywhere near the sun, about half the field of view was washed out. Same thing happened on overcast days too. When I returned them, the shop manager looked at the box and told me that my bin was old stock, a few years old at least, because the shop doesn't regularly stock them (not sure if that makes a difference, new coatings perhaps?). He appologized and he is ordering me a new pair from SONA. Hope the new ones are better.

Just my 2 cents.

Dan

Grousemore · Aug 11, 2004

Hi Dan and welcome to Birdforum from the Moderators and Staff.

Let us know how the new bins look.

CJW · Aug 11, 2004

Grousemore said:
Let us know how the new bins look.

They look like two tubes joined along their length with glass at each end.....

Welcome Dan from another Mod'

iporali · Aug 11, 2004

danhdz said:
When I returned them, the shop manager looked at the box and told me that my bin was old stock, a few years old at least, because the shop doesn't regularly stock them (not sure if that makes a difference, new coatings perhaps?). He appologized and he is ordering me a new pair from SONA. Hope the new ones are better.

Dan,
I think Swarovski did improve the coatings of their compacts (Swarotop or ...bright?) recently. I haven't seen them myself but the new pair could well be better in this respect.

Ilkka

Leif · Aug 11, 2004

iporali said:
Dan,
I think Swarovski did improve the coatings of their compacts (Swarotop or ...bright?) recently. I haven't seen them myself but the new pair could well be better in this respect.

Ilkka

Isn't this kind of pronounced flare more a case of inadequate baffles inside the binocular and/or sun shades on the objectives?

Jonathan B. · Aug 11, 2004

Leif said:
Isn't this kind of pronounced flare more a case of inadequate baffles inside the binocular and/or sun shades on the objectives?

I'm glad to see this thread resurrected and getting some response. I agree that it is lack of baffling that results in the amount of flare. You can see how minimal the baffling is by looking behind the objective lenses--a necessary evil resulting from the small diameter of the barrels. I have shaded them many times with a free hand, but the degree of flare is surprising nonetheless. Is is possible for any tiny compact to be free of this problem?

henry link · Aug 11, 2004

Jonathan B. said:
I'm glad to see this thread resurrected and getting some response. I agree that it is lack of baffling that results in the amount of flare. You can see how minimal the baffling is by looking behind the objective lenses--a necessary evil resulting from the small diameter of the barrels. I have shaded them many times with a free hand, but the degree of flare is surprising nonetheless. Is is possible for any tiny compact to be free of this problem?

Compact bins really do have more of a problem with this than large exit pupil bins even when their internal baffling is no worse. Most of these reflections occur at the edge of the exit pupil, either from the edge of the objective, focusing element or the first aperture of the prism housing. In a 2.5mm exit pupil bin the reflection will virtually always fall within the pupil diameter of the eye and be visible. In a 5mm exit pupil bin the reflection will fall "harmlessly" outside the pupil opening on the iris most of the time unless the light level is low enough for the eye's pupil to be open to 5mm or more.

You can see where the problem is occuring by placing a magnifier behind the eyepiece to examine the bin's interior when the "flare" is happening. I don't think coating quality has much to do with it. Well designed knife-edged apertures and baffles are the only real solution.

danhdz · Aug 11, 2004

Before returning them I compared them to another bin of similar aperture, and the problem was not nearly as pronounced. They were also not as "sharp," as they should have been, the focus was always a little soft. I suspected that they may have been damaged, but they looked fine to me. Also the problem was more or less symmetrical in both tubes. I think it was a defective bin (or batch) rather than a design problem.

For Jonathan B., was there always that much flare, or did it happen gradually? Couldn't the flare be a result of something coming loose or delaminating inside either over time or as a result of a shock?

Rico · Aug 12, 2004

I use the Zeiss Victory Compact 8x20 (my only bin) for mostly nocturnal viewing. There's a surprising quantity of mammalian life in the inner 'burbs of Chicago: 'possum, badger, raccoon, skunk, etc. Despite the bright, point-source lighting of the environs, I suffer no glare or flare. I have an extensive collection of photo lenses, so understand the consequences of poor optical coating and baffling.

These compacts, at least, get an A for flare suppression.

Jonathan B. · Aug 12, 2004

danhdz said:
For Jonathan B., was there always that much flare, or did it happen gradually? Couldn't the flare be a result of something coming loose or delaminating inside either over time or as a result of a shock?

The flare was apparent from day one, and the optics are in flawless condition. Viewing under virtually all other light conditions provides a perfect image, including pointing the binocular at artificial light sources. Flare is apparent in my other binoculars, but only when pointing almost directly toward the sun. In the 8x20 flare is apparent when viewing more generally in the direction of the sun, especially when the sun is low in the sky. I was never surprised by this effect, but wanted to know if other manufacturers had made 8x20s that did not exhibit flare.

Based on others' experiences described above, and on Henry's explanation of flare in small binoculars, I am satisfied that the problem is universal in these tiny compacts. The Leica 8x20 is a fine binocular, but it has several limitations. I use it when my primary purpose is walking/hiking rather than birding, or when I want something that I can keep in my briefcase. It serves its purpose well.

danhdz · Aug 27, 2004

Here's an update on my Swar 8x20:

The new one's are great! While there is still a little flare when looking near the sun, it is no worse than any other binocular I have. My old model turned out to be a display model from 1999, no swarobright or swarotop. The new ones are spot on. Also, the new ones feature REMOVABLE eyecups. As far as I know they aren't advertised as such, but the instructions indicated this and I was amazed. I work with waders, in intertidal systems mostly, and sand has a way of getting everywhere, this feature is really invaluable and has really upped the stock of the 8x20 in my book.

One final note, the dealer reneged on their offer to exchange and instead sent them out for repair. I called Swarovski NA customer service, and they set the dealer straight and shipped me a new one, w/ free next day shipping to boot. Their service is truly top notch.

Dan

kauai215 · Aug 29, 2004

danhdz said:
Here's an update on my Swar 8x20:

Also, the new ones feature REMOVABLE eyecups. As far as I know they aren't advertised as such, but the instructions indicated this and I was amazed. Dan

You have removable eyecups on your new Swaro 8x20s? My 8x20s are fairly new, that is they're Swarobright coated, and have the newer ~8 ft. close focus, but I don't think my eyecups are removable.

I love the removable eyecups on our ELs. It makes cleaning the eyepieces utter simplicity, not to mention much safer with no danger of swirling about grit from under the eyecup edges.

Do they come off just like the ELs, i.e. just keep on unscrewing counter-clockwise?

Anyone care to buy my like-new Swaro 8x20 bins?

Call me fussy, but I want removable eyecups, too.

danhdz · Aug 29, 2004

The eyecup mechanism seems identical to the EL mechanism (well, at least to my EL). The instuction manual was my first indication that this was possible. The model they sent me, seems to be new production (i.e. it comes in the new style box) also the model designation is 8x20 B N, whereas the old ones were just 8x20 B, I believe. If you go to Swaro's webpage and look at the spare parts page for the pocket models, there appear to be a few different (and confusing) models.

It seems that it is common amongst Swaro and Leica (and others perhaps) whose models are long-lived to introduce gradual changes, without noticably changing the model designation or advertising them. The eyecup thing was a real surpise to me, as it appears nowhere in there literature (save the manual and the spare parts webpage).

Added:
You're mention of ~8ft close focus intrigued me, the close focus listed in the manual and elsewhere is 4m (~12 ft). I tested the new bin and they close focus to about 2m (~6ft). Yet another unadvertised new feature.

kauai215 · Aug 30, 2004

danhdz said:
The eyecup mechanism seems identical to the EL mechanism (well, at least to my EL).

I checked the box for my 8x20s purchased last year, and they are indeed marked 8x20 B, not "BN." They have the Swarobright and close focus, but not the removable eyecups. I also noticed that the price at B&H Photo in NY recently went up $40, too.

Last time I looked at the Swarovski website, they still had the old specs for the 8x20. I've noticed that many manufacturers seem slow to update their product specs on websites.

Lately, I've gone to the Eagle Optics website here in the USA to review/confirm specs. They seem to measure actual samples of the current offerings and often have the latest specs; they correctly noted the specs for my iteration of the Swaro 8x20, for example.

kabsetz · Aug 30, 2004

Just a humble suggestion: if you are wondering how old/new somebody's binocular is and whether something might have changed compared to somebody elses, list your serial numbers on your postings and folks should be able to tell wether theirs are older or newer.

Kimmo

Leif · Aug 31, 2004

Jonathan B. said:
I own Leica 8x20 and have used it almost daily for four years. It is a great performer for its tiny size, but it flares quite badly when viewing anywhere near the sun. This is obviously annoying when using it early or late in the day.

I would like to know from those who own Zeiss Victory, Nikon HG, and Swarovksi 8x20 whether those binoculars also exhibit pronounced flare.

Jonathan: I am curious when you use the 8x20. The common concensus seems to be that a small binocular is for those times when carrying a larger model is impractical. I have had the opportunity to use a Zeiss 8x20 Classic. While an old model, and the small exit pupil does not make for the most comfortable viewing experience, I am taken aback by the high quality of the optics: beautifully sharp and contrasty images over most of the field without a trace of CA. The field is a tad narrow though compared with a full size binocular.

Jonathan B. · Sep 10, 2004

Leif said:
Jonathan: I am curious when you use the 8x20.

Leif,

I was away from my computer for several days, so only just noticed your post. I walk several miles daily, for the sake of exercise rather than birding. I carry my 8x20 with me then, when I don't want a big binocular hanging around my neck or on a harness. I have a small belt pouch into which the folded binocular fits perfectly, and the pouch zips shut over it.

The 8x20 is not easy to use. Because of the small exit pupils it takes a bit of adjusting to get the optimum image. The field of view is slightly narrow, but the image quality is surprisingly good. Because I walk near my home I seldom see anything unusual, but during migration I sometimes encounter a local rarity. On some days during migration I wear the 8x20 around my neck so I don't have to keep pulling it out of the pouch. I learned sometime ago that tying a loose knot in the cord, reducing its length about four inches, helps prevent it from bouncing constantly on my chest while I walk.

I also carry the 8x20 in my car, in my briefcase, and sometimes in the inside pocket of a coat. Hour for hour, I have probably used it more than any other binocular. The only real drawback is the flare, and even that can be avoided in most situations.

When I bought Leica 8x20 I compared only to Swarovski 8x20. I thought the Swarovski's image was identical and I liked its waterproofing, but I did not like the position of the focusing wheel. I have been caught in the rain several times with the Leica and it has gotten wet, but never submerged. It has never fogged up.

Leica, Nikon, Swarovski, Zeiss 8x20 (1 Viewer)

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