Let's talk PORROS! (1 Viewer)

[Paskman]

Our birds are bigger out here though. We don't have many Goldfinches out here plus a lot of the birding out here is done in more open country, so you really are not getting that close to the bird. The big Fujinons are perfect for Pelagic and Birds of Prey at distance overlooking water or distant cliffs. You don't get any glare with them which is wonderful. I use them at our Rocky Mountain Arsenal Bird Refuge in Colorado to look for Bald Eagles nesting across the lakes. Close focus on the Fujinon FMTR-SX is 17 feet, and they are in pretty good focus even at that distance to infinity. If you are doing a lot of birding at 15 to 20 feet you might have to set both your diopters to +2. You learn where you have set your diopters for closer in birding. Really you can leave them at 0 if your eyesight is 20/20, and you will in be focus pretty good from 30 feet to infinity.

Our birds are bigger out here though. We don't have many Goldfinches out here plus a lot of the birding out here is done in more open country, so you really are not getting that close to the bird. The big Fujinons are perfect for Pelagic and Birds of Prey at distance overlooking water or distant cliffs. You don't get any glare with them which is wonderful. I use them at our Rocky Mountain Arsenal Bird Refuge in Colorado to look for Bald Eagles nesting across the lakes. Close focus on the Fujinon FMTR-SX is 17 feet, and they are in pretty good focus even at that distance to infinity. If you are doing a lot of birding at 15 to 20 feet you might have to set both your diopters to +2. You learn where you have set your diopters for closer in birding. Really you can leave them at 0 if your eyesight is 20/20, and you will in be focus pretty good from 30 feet to infinity.

Well if they work for your type of birding then go for it. I think that for my days walking through the winter woods of southern England, trying to find Tree Creepers, Marsh Tits,. Goldcrests etc at very close distances a lighter, fast focussing roof is preferable 🙂

 

[Conndomat]

I do like the 50 mm porros now, and they are heavier but most 8x42 roofs weigh 2 pounds so what is another pound? But if you are a "Momma's Boy" and can't handle the weight APM does make a 6x30 Porro for about $200 that will put the alpha compacts to shame I am sure, and it has 18.5 mm of eye relief.

Dennis the APM looks very good!
I have a small Kowa 6x30 Porro myself, which can be used occasionally, but 6x is too little to observe in the long run, I'm more at 8x upwards!
Even 7x is a bit tight in some situations, especially at a great distance.

Andreas

 

[albie...]

Dennis , the 16x70 APM MS weighs 2124g (4.6lbs) , not 7 pounds . https://luntsolarsystems.com/shop/b...s-16-x-70-ed-apo-magnesium-series-binoculars/ . My 15x70 BA8 weighs almost 5.5 pounds . The APM weighs a pound less than the BA8 ,similar to the Nikon 18x70 , so it should be easier to handle on my monopod , I never hand hold a binocular that big . Strictly for astro use , my 8x42 MHG is my bin for hand holding although I sometimes use it with the monopod .

 

[[email protected]]

Dennis , the 16x70 APM MS weighs 2124g (4.6lbs) , not 7 pounds . https://luntsolarsystems.com/shop/b...s-16-x-70-ed-apo-magnesium-series-binoculars/ . My 15x70 BA8 weighs almost 5.5 pounds . The APM weighs a pound less than the BA8 ,similar to the Nikon 18x70 , so it should be easier to handle on my monopod , I never hand hold a binocular that big . Strictly for astro use , my 8x42 MHG is my bin for hand holding although I sometimes use it with the monopod .

That is a nice monopod! Where did you get that at? Even a 8x42 like your MHG is better on a monopod. It is surprising.

 

[[email protected]]

Dennis the APM looks very good!
I have a small Kowa 6x30 Porro myself, which can be used occasionally, but 6x is too little to observe in the long run, I'm more at 8x upwards!
Even 7x is a bit tight in some situations, especially at a great distance.

Andreas

The APM APO is nice to look at but BETTER to look through! I am finding the 7x50 format is pretty nice. Even though it is a big binocular the view is bright and sharp and with the big 7 mm exit pupil it is very nice and easy for eye placement. The 7x50 is like a 7x42 on steroids. It has all the advantages of a 7x42 but MORE! Those little Kowa porro 6x30 are nice for the money. I wonder if they are as good as the APM MS 6x30 porro?

https://www.apm-telescopes.de/en/binoculars/binoculars-30mm-aperture/apm-ms-6x30-binoculars.html

 

[[email protected]]

Well if they work for your type of birding then go for it. I think that for my days walking through the winter woods of southern England, trying to find Tree Creepers, Marsh Tits,. Goldcrests etc at very close distances a lighter, fast focussing roof is preferable 🙂

I agree! You don't need a big 7x50 for that. In Colorado, we have a lot of open mountain valleys and meadows where a bigger binocular like 7x50 makes sense. We have a lot of sun reflection off the lakes here also and a binocular with good glare control is very advantageous. For example, the Swarovski EL 10x32 had way too much glare for my usage in the mountains. What is a Tree Creeper? They sound interesting! I bet you would like the APM MS 6x30 porro for your type of birding. They are only $200.

https://www.apm-telescopes.de/en/binoculars/binoculars-30mm-aperture/apm-ms-6x30-binoculars.html

 

[PeterPS]

An issue of porros, which I believe nobody has mentioned on this thread, is their size scaling effect: an object viewed thru a porro may look much smaller than when viewed thru a roof with the same magnification. So your 7x porros might work like a 5x roof at distances that are common in bird watching.

 

[PeterPS]

I am also a bit puzzled by the fact that you claim that you don't need to focus your IF binos a lot. With age, eye accommodation goes down to about 1D, which means that frequent focusing would be required----unless you have the eyes of a youngster/youth.

 

[Troubador]

An issue of porros, which I believe nobody has mentioned on this thread, is their size scaling effect: an object viewed thru a porro may look much smaller than when viewed thru a roof with the same magnification. So your 7x porros might work like a 5x roof at distances that are common in bird watching.

Dennis commented on this and some other aspects of Porros in 2016: "
"That is one of the things I don't like about Porro's. The smaller image scale.

I prefer the view through a good roof like the Swarovision's. A roof definitely has an advantage at close range because of parallax. My porro's are all gone including the SE and EII. The alpha roofs now days are where it's at. Get ya an SV or SF and you will be happy. The "Top Guns" from two of the top manufacturers. Porro's are relic's".

Clearly he hadn't tried his current Porros back then and these have changed his opinion.

Lee

 

[PeterPS]

Dennis commented on this and some other aspects of Porros in 2016: "
"That is one of the things I don't like about Porro's. The smaller image scale.

I prefer the view through a good roof like the Swarovision's. A roof definitely has an advantage at close range because of parallax. My porro's are all gone including the SE and EII. The alpha roofs now days are where it's at. Get ya an SV or SF and you will be happy. The "Top Guns" from two of the top manufacturers. Porro's are relic's".

Clearly he hadn't tried his current Porros back then and these have changed his opinion.

Lee

Hi Lee,
Impressive that you have remembered (or been able to find) that post from 2016, my memory goes back only to 2017....It might be that the size scaling effect of the image is milder in big and heavy porros......Kidding aside, the effect should be quite strong in the Fujinons given their large objective separation.
Peter

 

[PeterPS]

I agree! You don't need a big 7x50 for that. In Colorado, we have a lot of open mountain valleys and meadows where a bigger binocular like 7x50 makes sense. We have a lot of sun reflection off the lakes here also and a binocular with good glare control is very advantageous. For example, the Swarovski EL 10x32 had way too much glare for my usage in the mountains. What is a Tree Creeper? They sound interesting! I bet you would like the APM MS 6x30 porro for your type of birding. They are only $200.

https://www.apm-telescopes.de/en/binoculars/binoculars-30mm-aperture/apm-ms-6x30-binoculars.html

You do have treecreepers in Colorado:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_birds_of_Colorado

 

[CharleyBird]

Dennis, as treecreepers are shy, close focus parallax effects won't be a concern with your new porros 😉

Only once have I startled a treecreeper at about 5 feet away, we locked eyes and there seemed a frozen time of 'OMG that's close' before it flew off. Usually they're well up (and mostly on the other side of) a tree

 

[Troubador]

Hi Lee,
Impressive that you have remembered (or been able to find) that post from 2016, my memory goes back only to 2017....It might be that the size scaling effect of the image is milder in big and heavy porros......Kidding aside, the effect should be quite strong in the Fujinons given their large objective separation.
Peter

I vaguely remembered Henry explaining this and a search found it and the quotes from Dennis were in that same thread. So sorry to say I cannot claim a super-memory.

Lee

 

[PYRTLE]

They are great binoculars and the 50 mm APO porros are remarkable especially for their price. I was shocked when I looked through them for the first time and I thought a Habicht was good! They are made of magnesium and are light for their size. The build quality is excellent and they are waterproof. They remind me of a classic German built porro of about 10 years ago but with modern HD glass and optics. They have a killer view. They make you forget about all those wimpy 32 mm alpha roof prisms. If you are into astronomy you can get some very large ones up to 150 mm.

https://www.apm-telescopes.de/en/binoculars/giant-binoculars-100mm-aperture-more.html

So Dennis,
Talk about the warranty on these......... a subject you've discussed and emphasised many times in the past as important when choosing a pair. I'm guessing it is not comparable to other brands you've spoken highly of in the past.
Thanks.

 

[albie...]

Dennis ,

Thanks, I really enjoy using my monopod . The 8x42 MHG's are on it 50% of the time , night and day .
The monopod is made up of three components all Manfrotto . The monopod (from Manfrotto Canada) , the fluid base feet (B&H) and the pistol grip head (ebay) . This monopod will extend 76 inches with the fluid base feet and then you can add the pistol grip to that . Allows you to easily see zenith if your neck will allow it . You can adjust the panning smoothness as well as the pistol grip's friction.

 

[Conndomat]

Kidding aside, the effect should be quite strong in the Fujinons given their large objective separation.

Hi Peter,

I actually don't feel that way at all in the Fujinon 10x50!

For comparison, I have a Conquest 10x32 and a Zeiss FL 10x56, the magnification in the Fujinon looks at least as large, on the contrary, with the 10x50 you are in the middle of the picture, I have the subjective impression with this glass that the magnification is even slightly higher!
This is not the case with the Fujinon 10x70, you are further away from the picture, so the magnification is a bit lower than with the 10x50 ...
Dennis what is your impression of the enlargement?

Andreas

 

[PeterPS]

Hi Andreas,
The effect/illusion diminishes with the distance to the target. Because it's an "illusion" it's possible that some people do not notice this scaling effect. You should try to compare the size of an object about 10m away from the observer, to see if you notice the scaling effect of porros.
Peter

PS For instance some people do not experience the somewhat related "moon illusion", but many people do notice it:
https://www.lockhaven.edu/~dsimanek/3d/moonillu.htm

 

[Conndomat]

Hi Peter,

Good idea, I'm just afraid the 10x50 Fujinon won't work on 10m. focus down!

A garden fence with a small sign in about 25m. is at least as big in the Fujinon 10x50 as in the other two 10x, the subjective impression of the Fujinon 10x70 is slightly smaller.


It is so, when I do the 10x50 Astro with the Fuji I am particularly "close" to the stars, even during the day I have the effect of being a touch closer with this glass, that is really a specialty of the 10x50 and makes the glass this makes it even more attractive, the insight and the feeling of space is really very good. I agree with Dennis on this point.

Andreas

 

[henry link]

The closest possible distance and the largest possible difference in objective baselines will show the strongest illusion. I just compared the apparent magnifications at about 5m between a Zeiss Oberkochen 8x50 Porro (baseline 130mm) and a Minolta Weathermatic 8x23 reverse Porro (41mm baseline). The Minolta's apparent magnification seemed to be almost twice the magnification of the Zeiss using two eyes. Using one eye the difference disappeared.

I think any other illusions of magnification differences are very minor compared to the really strong one created by objective baseline differences at close distance. Of course, at longer distances the illusion gradually disappears as the axes of the eyes become more parallel in all binoculars, but it's surprising to me how far the illusion is maintained. I could still detect it slightly at about 200m between the Zeiss and Minolta just now. Andreas, what do you measure for the closest focus through your 10x50 FMT-SX?

Henry

 

[Conndomat]

Andreas, what do you measure for the closest focus through your 10x50 FMT-SX?

Hallo Henry,


actually I have not yet determined the closest point with the Fujinon FMT 10x50!

Now it is already dark here, tomorrow during the day I will check the near point of the fujinon exactly, I will use the other two roofs 10x for comparison.
Then I will see if the Fujinon really makes smaller enlargements in the near point.

Andreas