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Do people count ringed birds on their lists? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Retrodaz
- Start date
Richard Prior
Halfway up an Alp
I don't think anyone would not include a bird on their lists just because it had been ringed elsewhere, some might be 'uncomfortable' including a bird 'in the hand' - I certainly was when my first Pallas' Warbler was shown to me at Old Fall hedge Flamborough just after it had been ringed. When I eventually saw one in Sussex a few years later it felt like a lifer somehow (although I'd put the Flamborough one on my list of course
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birdboybowley
Well-known member.....apparently so ;)
Never seen a problem with it personally. Great chance to study a bird up close. Not quite sure why so many people get on their high horses about it
wolfbirder
Well-known member
Its down to personal choice really - I have a Thrush Nightingale "only" seen in the hand at Spurn Obs (though I did find it earlier on but just could'nt get a sight of it), an similarly a 1stW Western Subalpine Warbler at Hilbre Island. ALso seen Greenish Warbler and YB Warbler in the hand, though I also saw those in flight and around bushes.
All are on my list, some might not like the idea of them being on your list, though I have no problem with them being on. Would always try to see them out of the hand too. But not always possible.
All are on my list, some might not like the idea of them being on your list, though I have no problem with them being on. Would always try to see them out of the hand too. But not always possible.
tomjenner
Well-known member
I seem to remember hearing somewhere that many American listers will not include a ringed bird, even if it is in the field. I guess everyone has their own criteria for what they want to count. As a ringer myself I would happily include any bird caught during a normal ringing session, though it might be different if a bird was caught by someone else and kept in a bag long enough for twitchers to arrive (which could potentially happen in the case of a rarity caught late in the evening and roosted overnight for release next morning).
Tom
Tom
ovenbird43
Well-known member
My views on this have changed over time. I used to not count them, basically in adherence of ABA rules. Over time though, I began to feel it was silly to tar the experience of having a new bird in the hand with the disappointment that it didn't "count". There are only a couple species that I've captured but not seen wild, but I feel more inclined now to count them- still want a good view of a wild Scaled Antpitta, but I have to say it was super awesome to have one in hand.
rosbifs
PutAin STOP
I was taken to a Pygmy Owl nestbox and the 'owner' of the box took the female out to show me. It was a fantstic bird and experience. However, I still got a massive buzz finding my own four years ago. I similarly got the feeling it was a new bird....
As for ringing (having helped a few times - although never actually ringed a bird) I think you could break it down to those like me where you were involved - there was a massive level of anticipation and then excitement in 'catching' the birds - these are wild and was definately not the same as being taken to the nest. Then there is a ringer (I have seen this in Spain) bags all the birds and returns them to a central point to take all the measurements and 'show' the bird. This is more akin to the nestbox experience.
Either way personal preferences as to how you manage your list is what should count to YOU with the rider that if you are comparing to lists of others you need a common base and 'rules'! You may need to break your lists down to include extra information so that at a later date you can adjust and amend according to the prevailing rules at that time... When I was 30 I could remember every detail about all the birds that I had only seen once or twice but now I am 46 I can't - sometimes thinking 'blimey don't even remember seeing that bird' - a sad fact and hence the need for lists!
As for ringing (having helped a few times - although never actually ringed a bird) I think you could break it down to those like me where you were involved - there was a massive level of anticipation and then excitement in 'catching' the birds - these are wild and was definately not the same as being taken to the nest. Then there is a ringer (I have seen this in Spain) bags all the birds and returns them to a central point to take all the measurements and 'show' the bird. This is more akin to the nestbox experience.
Either way personal preferences as to how you manage your list is what should count to YOU with the rider that if you are comparing to lists of others you need a common base and 'rules'! You may need to break your lists down to include extra information so that at a later date you can adjust and amend according to the prevailing rules at that time... When I was 30 I could remember every detail about all the birds that I had only seen once or twice but now I am 46 I can't - sometimes thinking 'blimey don't even remember seeing that bird' - a sad fact and hence the need for lists!
kuzeycem
Medicinal Birding
I have twitched 3 birds in hand: Eurasian Wryneck, Garden Warbler Red-breasted Flycatcher. EW and RBF I saw in the wild later on. I counted them and didn't feel guilty about it.
However, they didn't wait for me in the bag, they were caught when I was there. But even if they did I would still count it (I almost went for a Blyth's Reed Warbler in bag, but failed to do so).
However, they didn't wait for me in the bag, they were caught when I was there. But even if they did I would still count it (I almost went for a Blyth's Reed Warbler in bag, but failed to do so).
Anyone can count whatever they like. But birds in the hand are rarely counted by birders in the USA. I thought the reason was fairly obvious--a bird in the hand is no longer wild--it is a captive bird. I'd no more count a bird in the hand or a mist net than I would count a bird in a zoo. Now as to whether/when you can count it after it's been released, that's a more complicated question the ABA rules try to address, but I'm not going to try to elucidate all the complications here.
Tiraya
San Diego CA
I'm not sure I agree that a "bird in the hand" becomes "captive". It's still a wild bird, the same way a bird at your feeder is a wild bird. If you catch a butterfly in a net, does it become "captive"?
Long story short I have no reason ticking "held" birds. Then again I've never seen a bird in the hand period so I suppose it doesn't matter to me so much.
I'm sure the Swinhoe's petrel observers have comments to make here.
Long story short I have no reason ticking "held" birds. Then again I've never seen a bird in the hand period so I suppose it doesn't matter to me so much.
I'm sure the Swinhoe's petrel observers have comments to make here.
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Steve Arlow
Well-known member
Personally I have no issue with ticking a bird in the hand as long as it was caught in the wild and will be released back into the wild thus making it still a wild bird and not retained in a zoo, aviary etc.
Should you not count a bird beause you used optics to look at it and not used pure naked eye only ?. There are different ways to see wild birds and a bird caught in a mist net and then shown afterwards before release is not a problem.
Of course each to their own.
Should you not count a bird beause you used optics to look at it and not used pure naked eye only ?. There are different ways to see wild birds and a bird caught in a mist net and then shown afterwards before release is not a problem.
Of course each to their own.
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Peter C.
...just zis guy, you know?
I think it would probably be interesting to have a parallel list, consisting of those birds identified without optics! I can't be bothered, myself, but it would present a very interesting challenge.
Re: In the hand.
I don't get it - I would never, under any circs., count those. It's not that they're captive (or not, depending on one's definition thereof); it's that it completely removes the whole point of what I think birding is about - the pursuit and identification of the "quarry". The bird has to have (I hate to use the shooting metaphor, but can't think of any other) a sporting chance of "getting away" or I feel like I haven't actually accomplished anything - might as well have gone and looked at one in the zoo. Or a stuffed one at the museum.
This has a very practical application for me, because there's a banding station not terribly far from where I live. It would be quite trivial, there, to build up a life list of a couple of hundred species, just by looking at birds in the lab. And you wouldn't even have to go outside, not once!
(Disclosure note: I fully support this station and their activities, and have volunteered there for many years).
Peter C.
Of course a butterfly in a net is captive. The dictionary definition of captive is simply "under restraint or control." A bird at your feeder is not captive because it can fly wherever it wishes; a bird in your hand cannot.
Now you can define words idiosyncratically if you wish, but once a bird can no longer fly or move as it wishes because it is restrained by another creature, then there is no longer really any sport or challenge in attempting to see it. Just as in the case of a zoo; as I said previously.
Actually, it is precisely because they are captive that you do not like to count them. You are just using different words to describe the same concept.
Farnboro John
Well-known member
A bird made temporarily captive for the purpose of ringing or other study and subsequently released is captive but not domestic. Once it is released it is completely wild again (wild....absolutely livid!)
Some people insist on seeing the bird released, which seems sensible to me and a rule I have so far followed (because I have so far not been faced with any resulting dilemma!)
Unlike your aunty's talking parrot. That is not wild even if you release it.
John
Adam W
Well-known member
I guess it depends on what you see your list as meaning, For me its simply a list of the species I've seen so I've still seen a bird in the hand so it goes on the list, that's not to say that I might not prefer to see one not in the hand and try to do so later but if I've seen it then I've seen it.
For me talk of the challenge or 'sport' of birding is more to do with the general appeal of and reasons for going birding rather than what should or shouldn't go on a list.
For me talk of the challenge or 'sport' of birding is more to do with the general appeal of and reasons for going birding rather than what should or shouldn't go on a list.
ovenbird43
Well-known member
Yes - but a bird in the zoo isn't necessarily domestic either- whether or not a bird is domestic is a separate, if somewhat related, issue. The ABA rules state that captive birds cannot be counted, which most people interpret as applying to both birds in cages long-term (like at a zoo), or temporarily restrained for banding. This rule is likely why so few banders in North America count birds in the hand on their life lists, or they keep a separate list for them.
I can also understand the viewpoint that, since mist-netting is not the same activity as birding, one might not want to add birds in hand to one's "birding" life list. But that distinction is totally up to individual preference- in my own case, that distinction has become somewhat blurred in my mind over time.
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