When will the current alphas become 'obsolete' (2 Viewers)

As long as we have images with resolution better than the human retina can resolve, minimal aberations, good contrast and color rendition, I find it hard to find anything to either carp about or pine for. I suppose stray light control should be on the list, but there is only so much that you can do, since ultimately it is the human eye/brain combination which is the limiting factor.

I for one, am perfectly content, and I know that even with the latest whiz-bang my glasses won't go dark because they are "obsolete". If I live long enough to see the time when they can't be repaired, i guess I'll just have to buy new ones.

As far as the question of obsolete, I find the current offerings to be as good as gets.

How can brightness, wider FOV, handling, etc. be improved much over what we have now.

I am not interested in electronics at all, and since I am over 60, I will be very satisfied with what is
out there now.

See the recent post about Canon, and the problems with collimation. Right now the camera companies
like Nikon and Canon are sticking to their main businesses, cameras are not even one of them, and sports
optics are even less of a priority.

Jerry

Obsolete?

A good, well-made binocular from an established company just doesn't become obsolete IMO. The Zeiss Victory FLs 7X42 I have are pre-2006 models, so somewhere around 14 years old. Outside of the the addition of LotuTec, they are STILL pretty much SOTA. How many years will it still be a very nice binocular? I predict a long, long time.

Yeah, as I mentioned, obsolete was maybe the wrong term; outdated maybe would have been more accurate, but even that I feel does not express my true intent. I'm mostly wondering how quickly a new major innovation will come about (mostly, as I mentioned, usable IS, extremely wide fields, and/or variable zoom) as opposed to minor improvements because, as Jerry mentions and I agree with, current alpha level optics are almost as good as you can get.
It sounds like most people do not think new tech is likely around the corner, so maybe just buying one and being happy with it for however many years is the best option. I just hate the idea that I may spend $2K+ only for for a major breakthrough in binocular technology to present itself soon after; other technologies develop rapidly, so it is odd to me that binocular development seems to be a bit stagnate.

chill6x6 said:

Obsolete?

A good, well-made binocular from an established company just doesn't become obsolete IMO. The Zeiss Victory FLs 7X42 I have are pre-2006 models, so somewhere around 14 years old. Outside of the the addition of LotuTec, they are STILL pretty much SOTA. How many years will it still be a very nice binocular? I predict a long, long time.

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Hello Chill,

I think that it will be a very nice binocular for another fourteen years.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur :hi:

Pinewood said:

Hello Chill,

I think that it will be a very nice binocular for another fourteen years.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur :hi:

Click to expand...

Agree!
I only have experience with the 8x32 FL (not the 42)
and I think it's still a top bino.

There is no high demand for better optical properties of binoculars made today, and IMHO no radical new innovations around the corner.
Many speak of image stabilization, sure they can make an image stabilization (IS) binocular in our popular specs 8X30, 8X40. 10X40...but they reason they do not is that there is no real commercial demand, except for optic enthusiasts who are in much lower numbers compared to the general birding population who are quite content with a good binocular.
They would charge WX numbers or possibly more for a light weight premium glass with IS.

Anything can be made, how much money do you have.

I would get the premium glass, get two in fact and enjoy them, the only thing that will change is the rise of new companies vying for a piece of a small pie, and some of them will fail and have. Companies will only make what sells (demand), ergo the demise of the 10X32 and the 7X30, and of course fewer 7X42s made anymore.

Andy W.

Gijs van Ginkel said:

Andy, post 15,
As far as I know Leupold does not make any binoculars anymore, that is my conclusion from the information we got when we wanted to visit the factory a few years ago. If that is the case, who does the repairs?
Gijs van Ginkel

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Gijs,

You are correct about Leupold. They do have an in house ability to assemble, and they do have a very well set up CNC machining set up and can do housings and similar. But the closest they really come to making anything is much closer to "Assembled at Leupold". They have their own engineers and optical lab and have an in house repair ability. In certain product lines their Custom Shop will alter off the shelf products. That will be of no interest to birders, other than to illustrate some of the company's capabilities. If they can not do the repair, that typically offer to replace (sometimes to the customers overall benefit, but not with the GR as they may not match the GR) , but if they outsource any repair work, I have no idea where it is done. They have a long history with Kamakura, the source of the Gold Ring, so maybe Kama-Tech in San Diego.

chill6x6 said:

Obsolete?

A good, well-made binocular from an established company just doesn't become obsolete IMO. The Zeiss Victory FLs 7X42 I have are pre-2006 models, so somewhere around 14 years old. Outside of the the addition of LotuTec, they are STILL pretty much SOTA. How many years will it still be a very nice binocular? I predict a long, long time.

Click to expand...

I am very likely to go the 7x42 Zeiss FL route, because of the situation currently with 7x42 binoculars. But while I do not view it as obsolete, that view might change if it reaches a point where it can't be serviced.

The 'next big thing' in binoculars will be some time coming, because this is a small and stagnant market whose customers are very conservative.
So there won't be serious innovation unless it can be carried across at no real cost from the camera or video sides of the business.
Unfortunately, the Swaro lifetime service strategy has paralyzed the innovative drive of the sector. People don't buy superior performance such as offered by the Canon stabilized optics, in good part because of the limited warranty life and high repair costs. It matters not that these same terms are the norm for cameras, we expect more from our binoculars, but no one can provide that.

Eventually, there will be evolution along the lines laid out by the Sony DEV 50,
an all digital binocular feeding a high resolution screen. Because the sensor can be made more responsive to low light, it will not need big lenses to capture more light, but there will be a wide zoom range and built in photo/video.

jremmons said:

Now, before anyone goes too crazy, I just want to clarify: by 'obsolete' I mean replaced by the next tier wonder with improved technology (e.g. image stabilization, zoom, etc.); I realize that, optically, some of the current generation alphas are about near as good as you can get, and even the "dated" alphas of yesteryear are still competent bins.

More to my point: I've currently got a pair of 8x25 Zeiss Victory Pockets (an amazing little contraption, to be honest - I'd almost consider this a technological breakthrough in regards to binoculars) to use on my walks/hikes that aren't necessarily for bird viewing but may bring about some good birds. I've also got a pair of 8x42 Leupold Golden Ring HD (currently at L&S for some repairs) that are more of my 'main' pair of binoculars for dedicated birding (though the 8x25s will probably come along as well, given their portability). I have also got a pair of Vanguard Endeavor EDIV that are my car/work binoculars.

That said, I am in the process of selling my house, and considering something I've not considered in some time: buying an 'alpha' level binocular (to replace the Leupold GRHD) as my 'main' binocular. However, the current alphas seem somewhat 'old-tech', with really the newest innovation being the Zeiss SF with it's wider than typical field. I am concerned that newer technology is just around the corner (e.g. extra wide fields, better CA control, ergonomically friendly image-stabilization, actually usable zoom) and I may be throwing my money into something soon to be rendered 'obsolete' (as defined above). Most people pride themselves on their alphas being their main binoculars for 10+ years, and I'd like the same without feeling too 'outdated'. Several of the current alphas have been around, in one iteration or another, for a quite a few years now, so I'm just wondering when the 'next big thing' will be released...

Justin

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I will only say, new technology will not affect how well the ones you currently own work, so in that sense, they will never be obsolete if they do the job you ask of them. Meaning if you just want to make a change, go for it. But the ones you have will continue to do the job.

etudiant said:

The 'next big thing' in binoculars will be some time coming, because this is a small and stagnant market whose customers are very conservative.
So there won't be serious innovation unless it can be carried across at no real cost from the camera or video sides of the business.
Unfortunately, the Swaro lifetime service strategy has paralyzed the innovative drive of the sector. People don't buy superior performance such as offered by the Canon stabilized optics, in good part because of the limited warranty life and high repair costs. It matters not that these same terms are the norm for cameras, we expect more from our binoculars, but no one can provide that.

Eventually, there will be evolution along the lines laid out by the Sony DEV 50,
an all digital binocular feeding a high resolution screen. Because the sensor can be made more responsive to low light, it will not need big lenses to capture more light, but there will be a wide zoom range and built in photo/video.

Click to expand...

It will be interesting to see who hooks up with who ....
Already there are relationships, and little alliances here and there.

I think you are right, and it will be some time coming, and for, and when, the reasons you explained.

I think the ultimate convergence will be the digital zoom binocular connected via a wireless net (5G or so by that time), with AI capabilities that will Id your subject, and then automatically log and share the experience via your social media hub (ands well as discretely take a call from your mum at the same time!

AFAIK the highest widely commercially available EVF has a resolution of 4.4MP. We need to go well beyond the resolution of the human eye, and at a minimum scan rate of 200Hz p, for viewing comfort ..... even then, there would be questions, and a whole area of health research needed on the effects. I know that if I am looking at my HD smartphone screen for any length of time and then look out into darkness - I see millions of fireflies!. VR headsets face the same questions (along with spatial cognition and balance).

I'm not entirely sure this is the path I want to go down (though it may be fun to briefly view a truly sophisticated instrument). I would like to think that there will be places in the world unaffected (and immune) from the net of electromagnetic reception - where I can just purely experience and sense the natural vibrational frequency of a pristine unaffected world.

I would like to see advances in the classical optical instrument though - more fluorite elements, eliminated CA and other aberrations, thin lens design, lighter, advanced chassis materials and mechanical quality and tolerances, greater transmission over the full visible spectrum, better glare control and indexed coatings, more resolution (higher standards), eyeglass suitable wider fields of view - suitably flattened a 'la the NoctiVids petzval? field curvature, and a few other bits and bobs .......

Eventually I see the world diverging into two camps - those classical folk enjoying the analogue optics, and ....
- those at the pub, or club enjoying a drink, or maybe even in the lounge room having a cup of tea, while their virtual presence robot or drone takes the digital bins out into the real world to have their experience for them! and report back a highlights reel ! :-O



Chosun :gh:

jremmons said:

Now, before anyone goes too crazy, I just want to clarify: by 'obsolete' I mean replaced by the next tier wonder with improved technology (e.g. image stabilization, zoom, etc.); I realize that, optically, some of the current generation alphas are about near as good as you can get, and even the "dated" alphas of yesteryear are still competent bins.

More to my point: I've currently got a pair of 8x25 Zeiss Victory Pockets (an amazing little contraption, to be honest - I'd almost consider this a technological breakthrough in regards to binoculars) to use on my walks/hikes that aren't necessarily for bird viewing but may bring about some good birds. I've also got a pair of 8x42 Leupold Golden Ring HD (currently at L&S for some repairs) that are more of my 'main' pair of binoculars for dedicated birding (though the 8x25s will probably come along as well, given their portability). I have also got a pair of Vanguard Endeavor EDIV that are my car/work binoculars.

That said, I am in the process of selling my house, and considering something I've not considered in some time: buying an 'alpha' level binocular (to replace the Leupold GRHD) as my 'main' binocular. However, the current alphas seem somewhat 'old-tech', with really the newest innovation being the Zeiss SF with it's wider than typical field. I am concerned that newer technology is just around the corner (e.g. extra wide fields, better CA control, ergonomically friendly image-stabilization, actually usable zoom) and I may be throwing my money into something soon to be rendered 'obsolete' (as defined above). Most people pride themselves on their alphas being their main binoculars for 10+ years, and I'd like the same without feeling too 'outdated'. Several of the current alphas have been around, in one iteration or another, for a quite a few years now, so I'm just wondering when the 'next big thing' will be released...

Justin

Click to expand...

Until rods and cones in the human eye change, until ALL accommodations for ALL visual disparities for EACH observer become quantifiably the same, until observers stop calling distortion curvature of field, until their problem with collimation stops being called a problem with “focus,” until people stop basing their knowledge of optics on consumer ads, until the “wow” factor becomes quantifiable, until people realize a binocular’s value is based on quantifiable performance (at least to THAT observer) and not the words splatter over the backplates, and until the guy who just purchased his first binocular stops singing to the choir about the performance he is ill-prepared to address, the alpha will live on.

It may change dramatically from person to person because too many people refuse to let their own physiological deficiencies enter the equation, wherein it should dominate.
I know this to be true. But frankly, I don’t bloody care. The birds don’t care—especially the magpies. Only the sales mavens and those who like to talk care. I find it astounding that binocular forums are filled with people whose binoculars are among the finest in the world are constantly talking about “upgrading” when they can scarcely appreciate what they already have.

Now, if you will excuse me, I have to go and kick my dog and pop the head off a killdeer or two.

PS Bah ... humbug! :cat:

PPS Merry Christmas!!! :t:

Chosun Juan said:

It will be interesting to see who hooks up with who ....
Already there are relationships, and little alliances here and there....

Chosun :gh:

Click to expand...

Leica is partnered with Panasonic and Zeiss with Sony.
Nikon is very capable but focused on improving their camera business for now, much like Canon.
While Swaro does not have a strong electronics partner afaik, there are multiple possibilities such as the Samsungs and LGs.
However, the needed technologies are only approaching critical thresholds, so there will be a lag until they are sufficiently pervasive to make the transition attractive economically.

The Alpha you buy will go obsolete 16 days after you buy it (got to account for the return period). Leica and Zeiss recently refreshed their top line, so you wouldn't expect anything soon (then again I bought a Zeiss Victory HT, only to have it overthrown by the SF a year later).

The Swarovski EL SV 8.5x42 is getting long in the tooth and you've got to think Swarovski has a SF-killer in the works (just as the SF itself was designed as an EL SV killer by the same engineers hired away from Swarovski).

I wouldn't expect huge improvements, unless one of the manufacturers bites the bullet and uses calcium fluorite lenses, but they are fragile and not ideal for binoculars where a certain level of robustness is a given. The other way they could move forward is using molded glass aspheric lenses to contain costs. Newer nanotechnology lens coatings like those used in some camera lenses could also be applied to good effect.

Maybe if you look through a Nikon 10x50 WX, most of current 'alpha' binoculars will deliver cheap, obsolete plastic views...

etudiant said:

The 'next big thing' in binoculars will be some time coming, because this is a small and stagnant market whose customers are very conservative.
So there won't be serious innovation unless it can be carried across at no real cost from the camera or video sides of the business.
Unfortunately, the Swaro lifetime service strategy has paralyzed the innovative drive of the sector. People don't buy superior performance such as offered by the Canon stabilized optics, in good part because of the limited warranty life and high repair costs. It matters not that these same terms are the norm for cameras, we expect more from our binoculars, but no one can provide that.

Eventually, there will be evolution along the lines laid out by the Sony DEV 50,
an all digital binocular feeding a high resolution screen. Because the sensor can be made more responsive to low light, it will not need big lenses to capture more light, but there will be a wide zoom range and built in photo/video.

Click to expand...

This has been more or less my conundrum - it just seems like changes (not necessarily optical improvements) come very slow to the binocular world. I've got a lot of hobbies and interests, both analog and digital, and it amazes me how quickly technology can change in one group (e.g. computers, vehicles) but not really change at all in another (e.g. binoculars, firearms).

I suppose my best bet is just to look for a Zeiss SF or Swarovski SV at a price I can afford (particularly if Leupold gives me bad news about the GR HD).

Justin

Justin,

I realize your topic title is more provocative than you intended, but it does seem to "get them in the door." Until a few years ago, I had not purchased a binocular for almost 20 years. That was when the first Canon IS came out. After that I was very happy using what I had (Fujinon Meibo 7x50 and 14x70, and Canon IS 15x45). My hobby was amateur astronomy, and other than clever mounting schemes and a deliciously quirky observing chair, there were few products improvements that tempted me.

When I began birding, I wasn't really happy with my astronomy glasses for that application. I also discovered dramatic improvements in roof prism binoculars since I last looked. I was shocked that phase correction and more exotic glass were available in budget and mid-range binoculars, and I was stunned by the quality available from $200-$1,000. I would say the binocular optical revolution happened some time ago and the design upgrades of the last ten years among the alphas are more like minor after shocks.

I think that technology change is more likely to impact how birding is done, rather than impacting binoculars per se. I could argue we are already well into that revolution as well. Also, I think that integrating data and control will be more likely than the single Swiss Army knife gadget that does all things. This is more or less how it went with amateur astronomy. Digital control technology and especially CCD technology radically shifted the balance between eyeball observing and photo-capture. But technology did not impact the eyeball experience at all except for digital upgrades to aiming and/or drive, and the impetus to integrate with other systems was minimal.

I see more and more experienced birders using superzoom digital cameras both for field ID and for more careful study afterward. The camera technology and marketplace are changing more rapidly than binoculars, and there is more and more integration of digital technology at a couple different levels. There is an internet of personal stuff: phones, cameras and various cams, watches, headsets, training technology, health sensors (internet of things or IOT on your person). There is the broader IOT infrastructure at home or out and about, and then there is a broader cloud level. But just as at home, there are things that are logical to integrate and things that are silly to integrate. I might like my thermostat or Christmas light digitally controlled, but not so much my tack hammer or screwdriver. Similarly, I can see more use for integrating a camera than integrating my binoculars.

Alan

You are probably right, Alan, and that seems to be my thoughts as well - the advancements are coming in the form of higher quality offered at lower prices or minor improvements to the top end binoculars, not necessarily new technological breakthroughs and innovations (not to say there are none). I suppose I'll just hope for some crazy IS bino w/ 500'+ field of view and be on the lookout for a second-hand current-gen alpha (which was my original plan).

Hello all,

My 2009 iMac is obsolete. It no longer works with all web sites. I do not mind that is lacks all the current bells and whistles for word processing or spread sheets but it lacks a core utility.

My 1917 Zeiss binocular is a bit dim but it works, if not as well as my 1951 Leitz Binuxit 8x30, which has a nifty reticule, but it is still dimmer and less contrasty than a current alpha. If I had an auto, the Binuxit might sit rather usefully under a seat.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur :hi: