Irish Woodpecker Notepad (1 Viewer)

Hi - as a GSW obsessive, I'd be really grateful if anyone could record news, sightings, personal experience of GSW in Ireland. I have been finding it difficult to get all news from this year.

thanks!

Andrew

pianoman said:

Hi - as a GSW obsessive, I'd be really grateful if anyone could record news, sightings, personal experience of GSW in Ireland. I have been finding it difficult to get all news from this year.

thanks!

Andrew

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Are you serious?

Do you really expect anybody to divulge that sort of information on a public forum, or even privately?
Anyone who knows where these birds are breeding are quite rightly keeping it to themselves. Last year every site that held birds was broadcast on a website, what a fiasco, the birds had more cameras stuck in their faces than Claudia Schiffer.

If you knew where there were a breeding pair would you broadcast it? Think about it.


Twite.

Agreed. Rare bird breeding sites should not be posted publicly, and In my opinion not even disseminated around privately.

As Twite said, last year was a fiasco in terms of disturbance to rare breeders, and the website responsible has shown no ability to learn and is repeating the behaviour again this year with any information it obtains.

Until such a time as birders in Ireland see sense, and refuse to supply this website with such information then the risk of disturbance to these rare breeders, and even failure, remains high.

Owen

Well said Twite and Pariah. Couldn't agree more with you both. May be Pianomans intentions are well and good. Perhaps he should just be a little more careful how he words his requests in future.

Si.

Twite, Pariah, Monahawk...are you being a little harsh? Pianoman didn´t ask for information on breeding sites. As young have all fledged now anyway, his request is straighforward and nothing to do with breeding pairs.

Twite said:

You will probably have a response from at least one individual who was a regular reporter of a breeding pair in Co. Wicklow, though I don't expect him to be so stupid this time.

Twite.

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The adult and fledgling I reported here (there was no "pair", one adult was missing) were on private lands near where I live. Only four people know of the location of the site, including the landowner and myself. I never gave any directions to, or location of, the site other than the general name of the area, which is innaccessible to the public anyway. Believe me, no-one could have found that site without being guided to it. If your post refers to me, I´d be grateful if you could remove the word "stupid" from it, or ask the moderators to do so.

Sancho,

I know of a couple of nest sites which have not yet fledged (not that fledged birds should be released either). Woodpeckers often use the same tree for nesting. Meaning that someone could just go back next year and easily locate the nest.

I don't feel I am being harsh at all, the website alluded to above is notorious for releasing sensitive information on rare and scarce breeding birds. Its an eggers dream website!
And it utilizes any information it gets its hands on without concern for the birds welfare. Including information posted here.

Owen

Pariah said:

Sancho,

I know of a couple of nest sites which have not yet fledged (not that fledged birds should be released either). Woodpeckers often use the same tree for nesting. Meaning that someone could just go back next year and easily locate the nest.

I don't feel I am being harsh at all, the website alluded to above is notorious for releasing sensitive information on rare and scarce breeding birds. Its an eggers dream website!
And it utilizes any information it gets its hands on without concern for the birds welfare. Including information posted here.

Owen

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Point taken, Owen, but again, Pianoman wasn´t asking for breeding information. I actually took Pianoman to an area in Bray last year that a juvenile woodpecker was frequenting, in the hope of seeing it, but not to any nesthole. Whatever about the another website´s reports, they´ve nothing to do with Pianoman´s post.

Unfortunately at this time of year Sancho, "News" of Great spotted woodpeckers is going to equate with a nest site 9 times out of 10.

If it was next month or August I would not be concerned as juvs will have dispersed somewhat, but at the moment, family parties ARE present in breeding territory. (A family member found a pair with unfledged young only this week) so no news should be broadcast.

The notorious website has already broadcast 3-4 breeding territories this year, so lets not give it any more ammunition.

Owen

Tell you what, Pianoman....in a few weeks, if juveniles from the nestholes in my area are reported from gardens, etc. (and I´m pretty sure they will be), I´ll phone you and we´ll go and have a look. No nestholes. No breeding pairs. No Woodpecker Wars.

Meanwhile in a couple of years we´ll probably be sick of woodpeckers here, as they seem to be managing things pretty well themselves.

Sancho said:

Tell you what, Pianoman....in a few weeks, if juveniles from the nestholes in my area are reported from gardens, etc. (and I´m pretty sure they will be), I´ll phone you and we´ll go and have a look. No nestholes. No breeding pairs. No Woodpecker Wars.

Meanwhile in a couple of years we´ll probably be sick of woodpeckers here, as they seem to be managing things pretty well themselves.

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Sancho,

Stall the ball.

Maybe they will blitz the country and breed in every patch of wood in Ireland, maybe they won't. I hope you are right. There are a lot less breeding GS Woodpeckers than Little Egrets, but neither species is yet totally secure as a breeding species, and quite vulnerable for different reasons so I would hold off on the fanfare just for the moment.

There's no justification for the increasingly sloppy/reckless approach to disseminating information on the location of rare/scarce breeding birds that is emerging in Ireland. I am not just talking about your post, there has been a lot of verbal incontinence. People treat the internet like it's a fireside chat - it's not.

I am with Twite & Pariah on this one. Zero tolerance should be the aim, and any slippage deserves to be scalded.

If a breeding species is scarce & vulnerable, keep it to yourself. If they're not, then who wants to know about it? Just discreetly record it for the atlas or whatever - the rest of the world doesn't need to be told.

Ireland is an egger's paradise at the moment. Loads of information, very little chance of getting caught.


Mícheál

Mícheál said:

If a breeding species is scarce & vulnerable, keep it to yourself. If they're not, then who wants to know about it? Just discreetly record it for the atlas or whatever - the rest of the world doesn't need to be told.


Mícheál

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That´s precisely the point. Lots of people want to know about it. I agree wholeheartedly with yourself, Twite and Pariah on "zero tolerance" of revealing nest-sites. Last year I got about fifty e-mails and phone calls from birders wanting to know where the local nesthole was. I didn´t tell any of them. (Many of them would be precisely the ones to criticise dissemination of information on rare breeders...except of course to themselves, which would seem to be permissible).
But aside from birders, who are after all hobbyists, there are others who "want to know". For example conservation-aware landowners, Birdwatch Ireland, the Rare Birds Committee. "Recording for the Atlas" is disseminating information. So is telling any of the above. There is no question of "fanfare", as I said, exactly four people knew of the GSW site last year near where I live. Only those four still know. And no more will know, as it´s on private land, and innaccessible. (I´ve no idea what happened at any other GSW sites in the country, I´ve never visited any. But I know highly critical birders who have visited those sites, because apparently it´s okay for them to have a shufti, but not for anyone else. I even know of some birders who went to a Wicklow nest-site to see it, then complained vigorously that there were other people there too! Go figure...).
As for information-control, the OP simply wants to see a GSW in Ireland. Half of Bray know there are woodpeckers about; people have seen juveniles at their garden feeders in twelve gardens in three different areas of the town. Kids I teach, and people on the street, regularly give me "woodpecker-reports", from Bray and elsewhere in Wicklow. Should I swear them all to secrecy? What should I tell the twenty or so neighbours that have asked me about "that drumming sound"? That it´s "Classified"? It is simply not reasonable to suggest that people shouldn´t talk about woodpeckers in their locality, in their gardens, or on their estates. In fact it is important to raise awareness, in order to encourage people to both appreciate and fund conservation efforts. This doesn´t mean "revealing" nest-sites, but it does mean telling people, especially the young, that it is worth protecting the environment because there is a chance that biodiversity-loss can, in certain cases, be reversed.
In any case, I for one have put in hundreds of voluntary hours in the last two years monitoring GSW sites, not in order to tell lots of birders about them, but to inform the landowner and BI of progress. I could have spent that time rushing around the headlands of the country in search of rare (and pretty meaningless) vagrants, for my own amusement. Or I could have simply stayed in bed. Next year I probably will, in order to avoid being lectured to by people who haven´t done as much.

Twite said:

Are you serious?

Do you really expect anybody to divulge that sort of information on a public forum, or even privately?
Anyone who knows where these birds are breeding are quite rightly keeping it to themselves. Last year every site that held birds was broadcast on a website, what a fiasco, the birds had more cameras stuck in their faces than Claudia Schiffer.

If you knew where there were a breeding pair would you broadcast it? Think about it.

You will probably have a response from at least one individual who was a regular reporter of a breeding pair in Co. Wicklow, though I don't expect him to be so stupid this time.

Twite.

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Twite,
it occurs to me that some years ago on this forum, you kindly facilitated my request for information on where to see (Red-Listed) Twite in your locality. I´m at a loss to understand the difference, if no one is looking for, or divulging, the location of nest-sites.
Surely, as long these aren´t revealed, it´s each individual´s prerogative to share viewing information, or not, as they see fit? If one doesn´t agree with other birders, websites or hotlines giving "twitching" information, the simple solution is don´t ask, don´t log on, and don´t call. But it would be frankly wrong to assume the right to censor communication between other people. If Pianoman wants to see a woodpecker, and I know a garden where one is visiting, it´s my right to tell him. Just as it was your right to tell me where to see Twite.

Sancho said:

As for information-control, the OP simply wants to see a GSW in Ireland.

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You may be right - so would I, actually. However that is NOT what he/she asked for. The request was actually:

if anyone could record news, sightings, personal experience of GSW in Ireland

With all due respect to the OP, that request smelled like a general catch-all trawl. And as you have pointed out, they can go to Bray and take their chances. It's still not appropriate to post information on breeding sites or territories of rare breeding birds on the internet to someone trading under a pseudonym. That's all I was saying.

Sancho said:

But aside from birders, who are after all hobbyists, there are others who "want to know". For example conservation-aware landowners, Birdwatch Ireland, the Rare Birds Committee. "Recording for the Atlas" is disseminating information. So is telling any of the above.

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This is nonsense.

'Recording for the Atlas' will put a dot in a 10km square in a book that will come out in three or four years time. It is actually disingenuous to compare constructive work like that with the broadcast of rare breeding bird information, and unfairly undermines the credentials of a very worthy project to do so.

Sancho said:

Next year I probably will, in order to avoid being lectured to by people who haven´t done as much.

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you simply do not have a clue what anybody else has done here this year - I wouldn't make any such assumptions, Sancho.

Enjoy the Bank Holiday weekend, and keep up the good work.

Mícheál

Sancho said:

The adult and fledgling I reported here (there was no "pair", one adult was missing) were on private lands near where I live. Only four people know of the location of the site, including the landowner and myself. I never gave any directions to, or location of, the site other than the general name of the area, which is innaccessible to the public anyway. Believe me, no-one could have found that site without being guided to it. If your post refers to me, I´d be grateful if you could remove the word "stupid" from it, or ask the moderators to do so.

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Regardless of my intentions, or what you may think they were. If I was to accede to your request to remove the word stupid from my post it would be tantamount to an admission that it referred to you, which I am not prepared to confirm or deny.
My post stands. Feel free to interpret it in any way you choose to.

Sancho said:

Twite,
it occurs to me that some years ago on this forum, you kindly facilitated my request for information on where to see (Red-Listed) Twite in your locality. I´m at a loss to understand the difference, if no one is looking for, or divulging, the location of nest-sites.
Surely, as long these aren´t revealed, it´s each individual´s prerogative to share viewing information, or not, as they see fit? If one doesn´t agree with other birders, websites or hotlines giving "twitching" information, the simple solution is don´t ask, don´t log on, and don´t call. But it would be frankly wrong to assume the right to censor communication between other people. If Pianoman wants to see a woodpecker, and I know a garden where one is visiting, it´s my right to tell him. Just as it was your right to tell me where to see Twite.

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How disingenuous can you get?

It's like comparing apples and oranges. You conveniently forgot to mention that the Twite info I gave you was for the middle of winter, along the foreshore. Just about as far in time and distance as it is possible from breeding birds, in this case, highly mobile and probably migratory birds.

Now the oranges. Woodpeckers are generally sedentary, quite likely to breed in the same area as they winter, most certainly the same area as they bred the preceding year. Report woodpeckers outside of breeding times and anyone will know where to look when the time comes.

Sancho said:

But it would be frankly wrong to assume the right to censor communication between other people.

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With regards to censorship. You have lost the moral high ground here. My post has been moderated. I await the organ harvesters.

Twite

No, Twite, I haven´t lost any moral high ground, because referring to anyone, whether myself or another contributor, as "stupid" isn´t really in the spirit of the kind of courteous and respectful discourse that an internet forum, or civilised debate, really requires. I was referring to censorship of perfectly polite communication between consenting adults.
I´ve no idea where Twite breed, but neither is it common knowledge where the GSW breed, except, apparently, for one pair in central Wicklow that a lot of people apparently went to see.
Reporting woodpeckers at garden feeders, or lone juveniles on trees in housing estates, is not quite the same as telling eggers or whatever "where to look". GSW are highly vocal when alarmed, they drum, they are very distinctive in a garden. I didn´t go looking for GSW in Bray, suburban elderly folk who feed bluetits came to me with news of one in their garden, as have twelve other residents of various localities in Bray.
How exactly do you expect to suppress such knowledge of a bird in an area if thirteen "non-birder" locals can spot and correctly identify it in their own gardens? GSW is being reported all over the area, by people with comparatively little knowledge of birds. Again (and I´m getting a little tired of pointing this out) no-one is asking on this thread for breeding sites, and no-one is revealing them. Respectfully, can I be any clearer than that?

Gentlemen...............

This is more fun than the IBNL! B

Seriously, this discussion is getting a bit out of hand. Should the nesting locations of rare (or any?) bird species be broadcast? To ensure that that species successfully breeds, most likely no.

In the case of the Great Spotted Woodpeckers, for the time being I would say to hold off looking for them due to their very small population. If the population expands or a monitored site becomes feasible, then seeing them shouldn't be a problem.

Please send all reports of GSW to Dick Coombes in BWI, who is monitoring the population!

Lads,

Stop arguing semantics and recognise that the best thing for these rare breeders is to leave them to get on with it and minimize interference from birders.

It is best for these birds that they be left to breed in peace, and the bare bones of the matter is that broadcasting the locations of them will result in twitchers descending on sites just like last year. (Sancho..you are wrong in that only one site was focused on last year. Several sites received attention. Only one site brought things to a head, because the finder had his trust betrayed by the high up member of the birding community he reported the site to and the finder had the balls to tackle the issue publicly)

My own advice would be to tell no one AT ALL if you have a woodpecker site on your hands.

Last year a high up birder brought a photographer up to a site with him, who very obviously from the shots produced, stood right under the nest showing no consideration for the birds themselves. Hence upsetting the finder.

Sancho,

You are right. There were a lot of hypocrites last year who had visited that very site and yet chimed in when the disturbance card was played. But that's cos they are all as thick as each other. Don't join those ranks. and continue to keep your pair to yourself.

I've kept my woodpecker site secret for 3 years, and don't intend to stop at any point.
Same goes for pairs of cattle egrets and any other breeders that would attract attention.

Owen

Pariah said:

Sancho,

You are right. There were a lot of hypocrites last year who had visited that very site and yet chimed in when the disturbance card was played. But that's cos they are all as thick as each other. Don't join those ranks. and continue to keep your pair to yourself.

I've kept my woodpecker site secret for 3 years, and don't intend to stop at any point.

Owen

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Phew, a sensible post. Of course, Owen, the locations remain 100% shtum. To be honest, I´d rather the woodpeckers would simply faff off back to wherever they came from, because it´s more trouble than it´s worth trying to monitor them, and then take flak from the sanctimonious brethren for it. Meanwhile the hundreds of little old ladies from here to Shankill who know there are woodpeckers about (on account of their prediliction for peanuts and fat-balls) will be devastated. But if I don´t see another woodpecker as long as I live, it won´t be a moment too soon.
Have a good weekend,
éanna