A little Kamakura anecdote... (1 Viewer)

[jring]

Hi,

not getting into the "Made in XY means what?" discussion.
But for those who really think that Zeiss gave away trade secrets when giving Kamakura the specification for the Conquest coatings, I have to say that multilayer coatings are a 50 year old technology. And the number and tuning of layers for a specific transmission number and color rendition is NOT the hard part about it.
The real secret is to have a process to apply these layers in the required quality and with low reject rates. And I am quite sure that Kamakura (as well as a lot of other Japanese, Taiwanese and Chinese optics manufacturers) have had that long before Zeiss approached them about the Conquest and maybe gave them the specifications for their trademark blue/green color rendition.

Joachim

 

[Troubador]

Hi,

not getting into the "Made in XY means what?" discussion.
But for those who really think that Zeiss gave away trade secrets when giving Kamakura the specification for the Conquest coatings, I have to say that multilayer coatings are a 50 year old technology. And the number and tuning of layers for a specific transmission number and color rendition is NOT the hard part about it.
The real secret is to have a process to apply these layers in the required quality and with low reject rates. And I am quite sure that Kamakura (as well as a lot of other Japanese, Taiwanese and Chinese optics manufacturers) have had that long before Zeiss approached them about the Conquest and maybe gave them the specifications for their trademark blue/green color rendition.

Joachim

:t::t::t:

Lee

 

[Sebzwo]

It just feels like sometimes you get told just too much marketing-poetry about where something is made and how unique it is (therefore requiring higher prices) only to find out how different the real world is. One assembly for everybody. However many industries do it this way these days. At least be honest about it please.
Apple is honest, only claiming "designed" not "made" in California. It's no secret that they manufacture many chips and computers and phones in Taiwanese and Chinese factories, that serve a lot of other customers as well. I wished the optical industry would come as clear about where their stuff is truly made.

 

[Troubador]

It just feels like sometimes you get told just too much marketing-poetry about where something is made and how unique it is (therefore requiring higher prices) only to find out how different the real world is. One assembly for everybody. However many industries do it this way these days. At least be honest about it please.
Apple is honest, only claiming "designed" not "made" in California. It's no secret that they manufacture many chips and computers and phones in Taiwanese and Chinese factories, that serve a lot of other customers as well. I wished the optical industry would come as clear about where their stuff is truly made.

Meopta's MeoStars are marked Made in Czech Republic but MeoPros are marked assembled in Czech Republic and you can find Zeiss Terras and Victory Pockets clearly market made in China or made in Japan.

And this question isn't always as simple as it sounds with moulded products such as plastic eyecups, focus wheels, dioptre wheels, rubber armour and small precision-machined components such as focusing shafts and gears having been out-sourced for years from different sources in addition to accessories like ocular and objective covers, neck straps and bags. Add it all up and where is it made? But i agree with you that more openness is desirable.

Lee

 

[eronald]

Hi,

not getting into the "Made in XY means what?" discussion.
But for those who really think that Zeiss gave away trade secrets when giving Kamakura the specification for the Conquest coatings, I have to say that multilayer coatings are a 50 year old technology. And the number and tuning of layers for a specific transmission number and color rendition is NOT the hard part about it.
The real secret is to have a process to apply these layers in the required quality and with low reject rates. And I am quite sure that Kamakura (as well as a lot of other Japanese, Taiwanese and Chinese optics manufacturers) have had that long before Zeiss approached them about the Conquest and maybe gave them the specifications for their trademark blue/green color rendition.

Joachim

On the other hand one could argue that by completely outsourcing the Conquest they deprive themselves of amortising their own machines, lose jobs for their craftsmen, and lose a training forum for both craftsmen and production engineers. They also lose all the product optimisations one makes while observing production, defects and field failures, and organising purchasing of production machinery, and their design engineers fall out of touch with reality. The myth that one can keep a high-end engineering and manufacturing operation going with maximal subcontracting and without ever dipping a toe downmarket sounds like a precarious MBA dogma. In my lifetime I have rather seen the universal subcontractors become major engineering principals and the old principals go out of business - just look at the computer business Acer and Foxconn are still there, while Compaq, Zenith and Packard Bell are so gone

The good news: there is at least one profitable binocular maker, Kamakura. (!)

Edmund

 

[Troubador]

On the other hand one could argue that by completely outsourcing the Conquest they deprive themselves of amortising their own machines, lose jobs for their craftsmen, and lose a training forum for both craftsmen and production engineers. They also lose all the product optimisations one makes while observing production, defects and field failures, and organising purchasing of production machinery, and their design engineers fall out of touch with reality. The myth that one can keep a high-end engineering and manufacturing operation going with maximal subcontracting and without ever dipping a toe downmarket sounds like a precarious MBA dogma. In my lifetime I have rather seen the universal subcontractors become major engineering principals and the old principals go out of business - just look at the computer business Acer and Foxconn are still there, while Compaq, Zenith and Packard Bell are so gone

The good news: there is at least one profitable binocular maker, Kamakura. (!)

Edmund

All of what you say is possible but not inevitable. During the existence of Conquest HD, Zeiss's designers have given us SF binoculars in both 42 and 32mm forms as well as Harpia scope and your own Victory Pocket plus a brand-new rangefinder bino. They have also invested in their own production facilities, go to: https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=379310


Lee

 

[jring]

On the other hand one could argue that by completely outsourcing the Conquest they deprive themselves of amortising their own machines, lose jobs for their craftsmen, and lose a training forum for both craftsmen and production engineers.
...
Edmund

Hi,

I fully agree that this decision by Zeiss is not necessarily a good one if you look at things a bit more long term than the next year's numbers...

But when Conquest production went from Hungary to Kamakura, they went on to axe their Wetzlar Victory production down to just assembly (from parts sourced from Hungary and elsewhere) and repairs...

Some MBA certainly got a bonus for this.

Joachim

 

[justabirdwatcher]

Why is Swarovski the only optical company that does not outsource?
They want to keep the desired quality guaranteed.
Ofcourse they buy their glass, housing etc. from third parties, the same as Zeiss and Leica do. These last two companies outsource the complete production of the Terra, Conquest and Trinovid's but produce their topmodels by themselves like Swaro does.

AFAIK the DG is the only exception made with components from Sony and in the past the nightvision device.

Jan

Swaro needs to outsource their focus wheels to Nikon or even Bushnell. LOL

 

[justabirdwatcher]

I fairly certain that the two pairs of Cabelas Outfitter HD's I owned, were Kamakura bins. Nearly identical in optical performance to my Conquest HD's, really.

 

[[email protected]]

What binocular's are NOT made by Kamakura? Just Swarovski?

 

[eronald]

All of what you say is possible but not inevitable. During the existence of Conquest HD, Zeiss's designers have given us SF binoculars in both 42 and 32mm forms as well as Harpia scope and your own Victory Pocket plus a brand-new rangefinder bino. They have also invested in their own production facilities, go to: https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=379310


Lee

Lee,

You are so right. Zeiss appears to be a company who believe in outsourcing to the best and design by consultancy, and do it remarkably well. This is a new breed of engineering company who are not victims of the "Not Invented Here" syndrome, and one can see how the various binocular products benefit from a progress by marked jumps as with the FL, HT and SF (and Conquest and Terra) which all present differently.

Thus it seems the optical designer of the spectacular x42 SF was not someone who came up from the ranks inside Zeiss but rather a master designer who got roped in, and from its general feel I would say the equally remarkable Pocket is substantially a Kamakura creation, just as the tough and well-rounded Conquest line, although I am sure Zeiss did a lot of tuning: subcontractors work best when you ask them to do what they already know how to do. As for Harpia someone seems to have mentioned Meopta here for some reason but I have no idea if it is so. I have heard it said that the present-day french fashion and luxury brands use exactly the same method of bringing in outside design expertise and outsourcing much but not all of their production.

Personally, I guess it shows from my tone that I am nostalgic for the model of a "classic" European crafting company like the old Angénieux, Leica or Zeiss or indeed Swaro, with inhouse knowhow and production and timeless products, but as you point out Zeiss demonstrates that a modern business model can yield both top range quality and exceptional product variety.

Edmund

 

[Troubador]

Edmund

The story of the creation of SF42 is well known and you are correct in that the person who had the concept (Gerold Dobler) and the optics designer who worked with him (Konrad Seil) were hired specifically for the SF project. Konnie Seil died later but Gerry Dobler is still there. Dobler is one of the most creative originators of sports optics ever, having given us Swaro EL, ZEISS SF, ZEISS Harpia, none of which were simply exercises in 'a bit more contrast here, a bit wider field of view there'. I am pretty sure Victory Pocket is a ZEISS design and thus carries the Victory name. I do not know who designed Conquest HD but tend to the idea that it might have been designed by Kamakura to meet a specification from ZEISS.

Lee

 

[Sebzwo]

I like any designer's or manufacturer's handwriting. I'd love to have local flavor binoculars not mass produced clones with just different colored rings or decorations. Some are still here.

I would love to see quality reeditions of classic landmark designs (NOT form factor "retro" only please) done today with contemporary technology (glass and coatings). Like Zeiss' "Admiral Togo" binoculars with revolving lenses or the famous 8x60 U-Boat-Binocular.

http://www.fernglasmuseum.at/museum...eiss_marineglas_mit_revolver_5_10mal_(2).html
http://www.fernglasmuseum.at/museum...nglas/zeiss_8mal60_ubootkommandantenglas.html