AOU-NACC Proposals 2022 (1 Viewer)

[l_raty]

In the case of Short-billed Gull, I really believe that the only people who were confused about the names were the people voting on it. The rest of the world had a very clear view of what a Common Gull is and what a Mew Gull is.

Mew Gull is an American name for the Common Gull of Eurasia, which Americans started using in a sense encompassing brachyrhynchus, only (a while) after the latter was lumped with Larus canus.

The name was not changed immediately after this lump, however, as in the 1931 ed. of the AOU check-list, Larus canus brachyrhynchus was treated as a ssp, yet was still called Short-billed Gull (Check-list of North American birds - Biodiversity Heritage Library ). I assume the delay in the change was a result of the fact that L. canus canus had been removed from the check-list between this and the 1910 ed., were Mew Gull was treated as a hypothetical North American bird (Check-list of North American birds - Biodiversity Heritage Library ). Subsequently, records of canus became accepted again, which made a header for the whole species necessary in the check-list, and this received the name Mew Gull (1957 ed.: Check-list of North American birds - Biodiversity Heritage Library ) -- i.e., the name associated to the nominate form.

Mew Gull has never been used officially (be it in the New World or anywhere else) for brachyrhynchus alone. It has only ever been used in this sense in a couple of recent gull books, where the lump was reverted unofficially, and the name that applied officially in America to one of the pre-lump taxa was transferred to the other.

There is indeed nothing confusing in this.

 

[cajanuma]

Mew Gull is an American name for the Common Gull of Eurasia, which Americans started using in a sense encompassing brachyrhynchus, only (a while) after the latter was lumped with Larus canus.

The name was not changed immediately after this lump, however, as in the 1931 ed. of the AOU check-list, Larus canus brachyrhynchus was treated as a ssp, yet was still called Short-billed Gull (Check-list of North American birds - Biodiversity Heritage Library ). I assume the delay in the change was a result of the fact that L. canus canus had been removed from the check-list between this and the 1910 ed., were Mew Gull was treated as a hypothetical North American bird (Check-list of North American birds - Biodiversity Heritage Library ). Subsequently, records of canus became accepted again, which made a header for the whole species necessary in the check-list, and this received the name Mew Gull (1957 ed.: Check-list of North American birds - Biodiversity Heritage Library ) -- i.e., the name associated to the nominate form.

Mew Gull has never been used officially (be it in the New World or anywhere else) for brachyrhynchus alone. It has only ever been used in this sense in a couple of recent gull books, where the lump was reverted unofficially, and the name that applied officially in America to one of the pre-lump taxa was transferred to the other.

There is indeed nothing confusing in this.

I have no doubt you're technically correct about this, but it's a little besides the point.

Among English-speaking birders on both sides of the pond, Common Gull has long been used to refer to nominate canus, and Mew Gull to refer to N American brachyrhynchus. This is near-universal and there is essentially no confusion about this. I'm a European (Italian) birder who grew up in the US, and even back in the 1990s vagrant L canus canus on the East Coast were referred to by birders as Common Gulls; this was before there was much talk of a split. So for the sake of clarity of communications, which is what English/common names are for after all, keeping Mew for brachyrhynchus and Common for nominate canus seems like the simplest thing to do; hopefully the proposal passes and the name is changed back quickly from Short-billed to Mew Gull.

 

[pbjosh]

Mew Gull is an American name for the Common Gull of Eurasia, which Americans started using in a sense encompassing brachyrhynchus, only (a while) after the latter was lumped with Larus canus.

Mew Gull is, at a worldwide level, a name for brachyrhynchus first and foremost, and secondly is a name that a committee tried to assign a differing definition to. This secondary assignment has not been very widely followed. A committee's vote or name choice cannot change common usage.

Mew Gull has never been used officially (be it in the New World or anywhere else) for brachyrhynchus alone.

Again, officially no, but prevailing usage "in the wild" among English name users does not take a committee's decision or vote into regard.

I agree with many others that it should be changed back before droves of field guides are printed and even more confusion ensues.

It is a tempest in a teapot, I'll admit... but that doesn't mean that an effort should't be made to be sensible and correct something while still possible.

 

[l_raty]

Again, officially no, but prevailing usage "in the wild" among English name users does not take a committee's decision or vote into regard.

I agree with many others that it should be changed back before droves of field guides are printed and even more confusion ensues.

It is a tempest in a teapot, I'll admit... but that doesn't mean that an effort should't be made to be sensible and correct something while still possible.

I may admittedly not qualify as a real "English name user", but I have been using Short-billed Gull (and arguing against the use of Mew Gull) for this taxon since at least 2001.
The 'official' Dutch Birding name of this taxon is, and has been for years (if not decades), Short-billed Gull - WP Vogelnamen - Dutch Avifauna
The first record of this taxon in the Azores was published in 2007 under the name Short-billed Gull - https://www.researchgate.net/publication/321586455
The name that was used in the ground-breaking revision of the canus complex by Adriaens & Gibbins in 2016 is Short-billed Gull - Tijdschrift 38 nummer 1, 2016 - Dutch Birding
The name that is used in the recent Gulls of Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East: An Identification Guide, by Adriaens, Muusse, Jiguet & Dubois, is Short-billed Gull - Gulls of Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East

So it's not really as if this name was not around at all, or as if you could hope to prevent its introduction in the literature by a quick reversal of the NACC decision (which did not drive any of the above uses in the first place, anyway).

From a historical viewpoint, the perspective of having the same name adopted pre-lump and post-resplit in two edition of the AOU/AOS check-list for two wholly different members of the complex raises, to me, a definite red flag. (And is something I'm not, and probably never will be, able to regard as 'sensible'.)

 

[Kirk Roth]

From a historical viewpoint, the perspective of having the same name adopted pre-lump and post-resplit in two edition of the AOU/AOS check-list for two wholly different members of the complex raises, to me, a definite red flag. (And is something I'm not, and probably never will be, able to regard as 'sensible'.)

But the other side of this pre-vs. post-lump coin is that (for either right or wrong reasons) "Mew" has been used sometimes for both taxa and "Short-billed" has never. Depending on what one values in an English name, that argument can be viewed as simple and sensible also. Indeed, the more one limits their perspective, the simpler arguments become!

I'm not trying to sound "judgey" - many people have their valid perspectives on this, but we need to recognize that if there were a clear indisputable course on this, there would not be so much argument... and that we won't be very convincing if we're just stating that the other side is wrong for not seeing it our way.

 

[Andy Adcock]

Seems like scientists / academics v field birders again.

 

[raymie]

It's interesting that the four names they've narrowed it down to are probably the worst ones. I think they should probably stay away from both Lilian's and Chihuahuan since those two populations have been combined - the new name would no longer specifically refer to one but both instead.

I personally like the name Desert Meadowlark the best, I know it isn't a true desert species but it does describe its habitat difference well and would reduce confusion with the other two species (in contrast to, say, Southwestern Meadowlark). It better not be something stupidly long like "Desert Grasslands Meadowlark" or "Golden-breasted Meadowlark".

 

[Mysticete]

It's interesting that the four names they've narrowed it down to are probably the worst ones. I think they should probably stay away from both Lilian's and Chihuahuan since those two populations have been combined - the new name would no longer specifically refer to one but both instead.

I personally like the name Desert Meadowlark the best, I know it isn't a true desert species but it does describe its habitat difference well and would reduce confusion with the other two species (in contrast to, say, Southwestern Meadowlark). It better not be something stupidly long like "Desert Grasslands Meadowlark" or "Golden-breasted Meadowlark".

Yeah the 4 top names are not at all what I have put in my top 4. My thoughts is that they probably shouldn't have started off with such a long initial list of potential names, since votes got spread out in a manner that might have hurt the odds of for some names making it into the final spot.

Of the four options I hate Madrean (reminds of the the sky islands, which isn't really Meadowlark habitat) and Southwestern. The other two are okay, if lazy.

 

[raymie]

Mexican Meadowlark is by far the best of those top four, I think we can all agree.

 

[Kirk Roth]

Mexican Meadowlark is by far the best of those top four, I think we can all agree.

The AOU did not agree, back when it was naming subspecies. So it would have to be distinguished from S. magna mexicana.

Mexican Meadowlark - from Bent

 

[raymie]

The AOU did not agree, back when it was naming subspecies. So it would have to be distinguished from S. magna mexicana.

Mexican Meadowlark - from Bent

I was going to say that a name last used over 125 years ago shouldn't mean anything, but I forgot this is the NACC we're talking about. I guess we're getting Lilian's Southwestern Desert Grassland White-tailed Meadowlark then.

 

[Jim LeNomenclatoriste]

Lilian's Southwestern Desert Grassland White-tailed Meadowlark

Sounds like a legit English name

 

[Kirk Roth]

I was going to say that a name last used over 125 years ago shouldn't mean anything, but I forgot this is the NACC we're talking about. I guess we're getting Lilian's Southwestern Desert Grassland White-tailed Meadowlark then.

I had suggested Cape May Meadowlark, but for some reason it didn't get any traction.

 

[MJB]

It's interesting that the four names they've narrowed it down to are probably the worst ones. I think they should probably stay away from both Lilian's and Chihuahuan since those two populations have been combined - the new name would no longer specifically refer to one but both instead.

I personally like the name Desert Meadowlark the best, I know it isn't a true desert species but it does describe its habitat difference well and would reduce confusion with the other two species (in contrast to, say, Southwestern Meadowlark). It better not be something stupidly long like "Desert Grasslands Meadowlark" or "Golden-breasted Meadowlark".

I don't have any skin in this game, but "Desert Grasslands Meadowlark" sounds very informative to someone from the WP...!
It's only three words, too...
MJB

 

[Kirk Roth]

I don't have any skin in this game, but "Desert Grasslands Meadowlark" sounds very informative to someone from the WP...!
It's only three words, too...
MJB

I think this meadowlark is just an inherently difficult taxon to give a discrete name to. It just seems that every plumage or geographic descriptor is either shared by Western or some subspecies of Eastern Meadowlarks or else not shared by both lilianae and auropectoralis. Even the song is low pitched like a Western but applied to the elements of the Eastern song.

They should name it Intermediate Meadowlark and be done with it. It may or may not be an informative name!

...and shouldn't it be "Desert-grasslands Meadowlark?" I'll see myself out.

 

[Snapdragyn]

I was going to say the same about the hyphen. Part of their logic for removing hyphens was that all adjectives are understood to describe the following noun. In this case, that is not so - thus a hyphen is necessary. FWIW I still use hyphens anyway, but I can at least recognize the inconsistency in their stated approach here.

 

[Mysticete]

I know this name is in jest, but their is at least one lizard, Desert Grassland Whiptail, which uses this common name descriptor.

 

[l_raty]

...and shouldn't it be "Desert-grasslands Meadowlark?" I'll see myself out.

Is there a justification for writing 'grasslands' in the plural ?

 

[raymie]

I think this meadowlark is just an inherently difficult taxon to give a discrete name to. It just seems that every plumage or geographic descriptor is either shared by Western or some subspecies of Eastern Meadowlarks or else not shared by both lilianae and auropectoralis. Even the song is low pitched like a Western but applied to the elements of the Eastern song.

They should name it Intermediate Meadowlark and be done with it. It may or may not be an informative name!

...and shouldn't it be "Desert-grasslands Meadowlark?" I'll see myself out.

I really like Intermediate Meadowlark!

The problem with Desert Grassland Meadowlark (other then being really long and overly specific) is that it's redundant. We don't need "grassland" and "meadow" in the same bird name!

 

[Welsh Peregrine]

Sahel-type vegetation but in Meso-America thing that isn’t actually a lark at all but a modified Blackbird but not of the Thrush-type. New name, sorted!