Corvidae (1 Viewer)

[Jim LeNomenclatoriste]

Brendan A Graham, Carla Cicero, Dan Strickland, John G Woods, Howard Coneybeare, Kimberly M Dohms, Ildiko Szabo, Theresa M Burg, Cryptic genetic diversity and cytonuclear discordance characterize contact among Canada jay (Perisoreus canadensis) morphotypes in western North America, Biological Journal of the Linnean Society, 2021;, blaa223,

Cryptic genetic diversity and cytonuclear discordance characterize contact among Canada jay (Perisoreus canadensis) morphotypes in western North America

Abstract. Three distinct Canada jay (Perisoreus canadensis) morphotypes with easily recognizable plumage traits come into contact in western North America. Rece

academic.oup.com

Abstract
Three distinct Canada jay (Perisoreus canadensis) morphotypes with easily recognizable plumage traits come into contact in western North America. Recent work demonstrated high genetic structure across the species’ range; however, patterns of genetic variation in these contact zones remain unknown. We categorized 605 individuals into one of three morphotypes (Pacific, Rocky Mountain, and Boreal) based on plumage, and genotyped individuals at the mtDNA control region and 12 microsatellite loci to assess the extent of hybridization between morphotypes. Our data showed cryptic genetic diversity and high cytonuclear discordance among morphotypes within contact zones, which is likely the result of recent and historical admixture. The distributions of the Boreal and Pacific morphotypes each showed a strong association with a single, distinct genetic group, whereas the Rocky Mountain morphotype exhibited higher genetic diversity and was associated with multiple genotypes. Our analyses show the importance of considering both plumage and genetic traits when examining contact zones between closely related taxa. Finally the data presented in this study reaffirm that the Pacific morphotype is distinct from the Boreal and Rocky Mountain morphotypes based on genetic, phenotypic and ecological data, indicating that the Pacific morphotype should be re-elevated to a full species.

Who has access to this revue ?

 

[Peter Kovalik]

Butler, R. W. 2021. Taxonomy of the Northwestern Crow Corvus caurinus. British Columbia Birds 31: 41–46.

Abstract:

A recent genomic study by Slager et al. (2020) suggested that the Northwestern Crow (Corvus caurinus) and the American Crow (C. brachyrhynchos) hybridized along a >1400 km wide zone between northwest Washington and the north coast of British Columbia. A reanalysis of those data suggests hybridization is confined to coastal valleys inhabited by humans and isolated from much of the British Columbia coast by uninhabited fjords and where genetics of crows has yet to be described. Based on these results, it is recommended that Corvus caurinus be retained as a full species.

 

[Jim LeNomenclatoriste]

A reanalysis of those data ..

His own or data from another work ?
An article that might be interesting to read

 

[Paul Clapham]

The reanalysis is his own work -- I'm reading the article right now but it's still unpublished and in press.

 

[Kirk Roth]

The reanalysis is his own work -- I'm reading the article right now but it's still unpublished and in press.

Butler is not a coauthor on the Slager study.

Also if this were a simple reanalysis its interesting that this isn't appearing in the same journal as the original.

 

[Mysticete]

Am I interpreting the abstract correctly? Seems he is saying that because the genetics of some more isolated populations is unknown, there isn't enough evidence to justify a lump?

 

[njlarsen]

Am I interpreting the abstract correctly? Seems he is saying that because the genetics of some more isolated populations is unknown, there isn't enough evidence to justify a lump?

That is my interpretation as well. I assume he feels that there could be an argument made that the hybrid zone is narrow? Whether that is an argument I would buy? probably not, but I would need to read the entire paper to see if there is an argument.

Niels

 

[THE_FERN]

That is my interpretation as well. I assume he feels that there could be an argument made that the hybrid zone is narrow? Whether that is an argument I would buy? probably not, but I would need to read the entire paper to see if there is an argument.

Niels

Broadly speaking, isn't this one of those that looks the same, sounds the same, is genetically the same and so...

 

[Jim LeNomenclatoriste]

Broadly speaking, isn't this one of those that looks the same, sounds the same, is genetically the same and so...

Like C. corone and C. cornix no ? Look similar, sound similar and yet 🤔

 

[Mysticete]

Like C. corone and C. cornix no ? Look similar, sound similar and yet 🤔

Er...Hooded Crows and Carrions Crows look the same?

 

[Jim LeNomenclatoriste]

Er...Hooded Crows and Carrions Crows look the same?

One is black, the other is black and grey. But the sound, similar or not ? Besides, can they hybridize ?

 

[Mysticete]

One is black, the other is black and grey. But the sound, similar or not ? Besides, can they hybridize ?

Yeah but....Northwestern vs American Crow don't even look different. So I don't see them as comparable. And lots of things have hybrid zones...the question is how stable and large are they.

 

[njlarsen]

Broadly speaking, isn't this one of those that looks the same, sounds the same, is genetically the same and so...

My old 2nd ed Nat Geo FG states difference is in calls that are lower and hoarser. Whether that is still the case (with pure NW Crows if any can be found) I don't know.

Niels

 

[Andy Adcock]

Er...Hooded Crows and Carrions Crows look the same?

Really, what field guide are you using?

 

[Jim LeNomenclatoriste]

Really, what field guide are you using?

In fact, I have listened to the call of Corvus cornix in Xeno Canto and I find it identical to that of C. corone and except for different plumage, the two species are roughly similar. So, why are they considered to be two distinct species?
I just ask myself 🤷

 

[THE_FERN]

In fact, I have listened to the call of Corvus cornix in Xeno Canto and I find it identical to that of C. corone and except for different plumage, the two species are roughly similar. So, why are they considered to be two distinct species?
I just ask myself 🤷

I'm not sure what the current thinking is. Certainly in the past they've either been considered as different species... ...or not depending on the taxonomy you follow.

In this case (hooded vs carrion) I'd want to understand how genetically different they are. I suspect it's probably like the large gulls—genetically basically all the same thing, a "hybrid swarm". The phenotypic differences we see might be akin to "subspecies"-level variation such as we see in pied/white wagtail or Western yellow wagtail. Still hoping to find an update, but (I think the) last paper I looked at suggested large gulls all diverged no more than about 500k years ago. Ultimately, though, what we decide are "species" is arbitrary and generally not very comparable between taxa.

[Edit: this is my excuse for not putting much effort into learning gulls...]

 

[Mysticete]

Really, what field guide are you using?

This was sarcasm

 

[Jim LeNomenclatoriste]

In fact, I have listened to the call of Corvus cornix in Xeno Canto and I find it identical to that of C. corone and except for different plumage, the two species are roughly similar. So, why are they considered to be two distinct species?
I just ask myself 🤷

I'm ironic but if the voice is a criterion to define that such or such a population is a species, each individual of the Blackbird (Turdus merula) would be a distinct species because they all have a different song depending on the locality. 😏

 

[THE_FERN]

I'm ironic but if the voice is a criterion to define that such or such a population is a species, each individual of the Blackbird (Turdus merula) would be a distinct species because they all have a different song depending on the locality. 😏

...= +/- the approach we take with owls...

(I'm amazed at how different Santa Marta Scops appears in different pictures. Never seen it wild)

 

[Peter Boesman]

I'm ironic but if the voice is a criterion to define that such or such a population is a species, each individual of the Blackbird (Turdus merula) would be a distinct species because they all have a different song depending on the locality. 😏

Hmm...are you serious about this?
Reasoning along the same lines, every individual has a unique DNA, so ...