Current stste of ZenRay glare control (1 Viewer)

[Ripantuck]

Have read a great deal about ZR's edge issues and Ibelieve I have a handle on this. But, I seem to be detectimg much conflicting info on the cuurent stste of the glare/flare control. The average views that I perceive with respect to this issue is as follows;

ED III Much improved over current manufacured EDII. However this still is a weakness and is noticably worse than comparable models such as Bushnell Legend, Vortex Viper and any of the luxury models.

EDII. Much improved over earlier manufactured EDII's but inferior to almost anything else that retails over $50.00.

ZRSHD. Not sure what the consensus on this one is with respect to glare/flare control, but get the impression that it maybe superior to either the EDII or EDIII in this respect.

Now that you see what my impressions are about the consensus opinion about the glare control on these models, please correct my impressions where they are wrong.

Thanks,

Rip

 

[gainsbeen]

I have a pair of their older 8x43 ZEN ED (not ED2). I don't know how that one will fall into the list above. But the view is phenomenon and I couldn't see anything inferior comparing to those more expensive binoculars. The focus speed is slow though, especially at short distance range. Is there a change on ED2 for focuser speed?

 

[FrankD]

gainsbeen,

Yes. The ED had a 2.5 turn from close focus to infinity. The ED2 has a 1.75 turn from close focus to infinity and the ED3 goes from close focus to infinity in 1 turn....going by memory. I may be off by a quarter turn here or there.

Rip,

I don't believe your statements to be entirely true based on my experience. The original 7x36 ED2 was the model and configuration of that model that suffered from the dreaded crescent under a variety of conditions. The redesigned 7x36 ED2 had that issue significantly reduced. Google Holger Merlitz and 7x36 ED2 for a very accurate accounting of this specific issue.

I do not remember stray light be often mentioned with the full size 43 mm configurations of any of the models. I have the ED3 on hand and will try it out shortly.

 

[Ripantuck]

I have read Holger Merllitz articles you noted. However, there are numerous references here that are more recent. Often, just a fleeting comment when discussing other binoculars. Many times I can't tell if the comments are objective and current or just a repeat, similar to an urban legend. Although most comments have referenced the 7X36, this critcism predated the intro. of the 7X36 by a year or two at least.

I don't see how my statements can be anything but true because they are my impression of what I have been reading. I make no claim that I have completed a stastistical analysis of all the comments made, nor do I claim to believe or disbelieve my impression. I only claim to be confused.

In my personal use of optics, what I have found is that many of the areas commented on and tested by others and myself tend to become unimportant in actual use because I always run into somethng interesting under difficult
conditions that I can't seem to duplicate until it happens.

Frankly, I don't worry about a small crescent of light at the edge of my field of
view under certain conditions, but I know if a binocular has problems with glare and stray light, I may run into conditions where I will see nothing but glare, partly because my eyes are sensitive to glare and partly because I seem to often run into high glare conditions. Most common is a low sun in a deciduous wood with dust from leaf litter reflecting and intensifying the sun's glare. Other conditions that can cause problems can be a bright sunlit day, with either a lot of water vapor and mist in the air e.g. After a thunderstorm, or a lot of dust in the air and looking into a shady area.

Therefore, a binocular's ability to handle glare is important to me. It is hard for me to really get a handle on how well the Zen Rays have handled this problem. Some posters indicate that it has been corrected, others say it is
better but still not as glare free as competing models. Others say it is better,
but not as good as the EDlll models. One person indicated he finally sold his
newer model EDII's because he had the crescent problem even on cloudy days.

Adding all these comments up confuses me. Maybe they have been fully corrected and are merely suffering from perception problems. I just can't figure it out.

I can't really test for this problem because of difficulty creating the conditions. Therefore, I am considering the crescent problem a proxy for what might happen under more challenging conditions. Perhaps this isn't justified?

Thanks,

Rip

 

[FrankD]

Rip,

The tricky thing about some stray light issues is that it is entirely dependent on the individual user. The crescent issue mentioned with the original 7x36 ED2 is a perfect example. Some users noted it immediately upon use. Others never saw it or if they did see it then they weren't adversely affected by it. My interpretation of those comments were that it depended on an individual's facial dimensions and, consequently, how they were holding the binocular up to their eyes in regular use.

Having said that I am sure there are stray light issues with some binoculars that anyone can experience readily. From past experience I would not say that the 43 mm ED2s and ED3s suffered from stray light issues any more readily than similarly priced models. Would I expect them to compete in this area with a binocualr costing 4 to 5 times as much? No, I probably wouldn't but would be pleasantly surprised if they did.

I did use the 7x43 ED3 this past weekend and earlier this week and did not notice any significant issues with stray light control. I am not overly susceptible to it but did try to focus my attention on that specific issue because of your earlier questions in regard to it. I will continue to use them daily during the rest of the week to see if I can induce it under some adverse conditions.

 

[Steve C]

Rip,

The tricky thing about some stray light issues is that it is entirely dependent on the individual user. The crescent issue mentioned with the original 7x36 ED2 is a perfect example. Some users noted it immediately upon use. Others never saw it or if they did see it then they weren't adversely affected by it. My interpretation of those comments were that it depended on an individual's facial dimensions and, consequently, how they were holding the binocular up to their eyes in regular use.

Having said that I am sure there are stray light issues with some binoculars that anyone can experience readily. From past experience I would not say that the 43 mm ED2s and ED3s suffered from stray light issues any more readily than similarly priced models. Would I expect them to compete in this area with a binocualr costing 4 to 5 times as much? No, I probably wouldn't but would be pleasantly surprised if they did.

I did use the 7x43 ED3 this past weekend and earlier this week and did not notice any significant issues with stray light control. I am not overly susceptible to it but did try to focus my attention on that specific issue because of your earlier questions in regard to it. I will continue to use them daily during the rest of the week to see if I can induce it under some adverse conditions.

I have to agree completely with Frank here. I've owned at least one of just about everything ZR produced at one time or another.

The glare thing, for me personally, is a "ghost issue" in that it just does not exist in normal use situations. I have what is likely the first 7x36 ED 2 ever delivered to a customer. The contortions I have to go through to get the glare, flare, ghosting, whatever or however it is described, are things I would never do while using the glass in the field. There are other binoculars out there that are lots worse than any of the ZEN ED, ED 3 or ED 3 you never hear much about.

Realistically, there were some internal baffling issues that were identified and adressed pretty quickly. Reports seem to indicate that pretty well fixed the issue. I say pretty well, because somebody will have some sort of issue with anything. It never was particularly identified as an issue in the x43 models at all, until somebody posted about it in the 7x36.

The ZEN ED 2 7x36 review and update by Holger Merlitz adress the issue better than anything else, so read it.

 

[Stet]

Rip,

The tricky thing about some stray light issues is that it is entirely dependent on the individual user. The crescent issue mentioned with the original 7x36 ED2 is a perfect example. Some users noted it immediately upon use. Others never saw it or if they did see it then they weren't adversely affected by it. My interpretation of those comments were that it depended on an individual's facial dimensions and, consequently, how they were holding the binocular up to their eyes in regular use.

I find this to be absolutely true in my personal experience. I came across this when comparing multiple binoculars in extreme glare conditions, to see which ones handled the glare best and I have found it definetly mattered how I held the binoculars to my eyes, more so on some binoculars than others.

Just so happens one of those were the Zen ED2 8x43 and it was one of the binoculars that showed a big difference depending on how I held them to my eyes.

One of the test I used was looking down a stream, with the sun rising directly behind the stream at about 30 degrees above the horizon. My favored viewing techinique is to turn the eyepieces down as far as I can without seeing blackouts, while resting the top of the eyepiece on my eyebrow and tilting the binoculars up slightly. For me this allows me to see the least amount of vingetting and makes the view appear more expansive. Using this technique with the Zens I found it exhibited quite the cresent glare at the bottom when looking up the stream, the sun glaring off the water. Next came the my Nikon SE's, which because of the none adjustable eyepeices I could not use that technique and had to look straight through them with the eyepieces up and saw just a very slight hint of cresent glare. This made me think. So I turned the eyepieces all the way out and looked through the Zen's straight through like the SE's and the glare was gone! Repeated several times with the same results. Found the same type of results with my Nikon Premiers, but the glare was less than the Zen's. The Sightron 8x32 blue sky actually handled the glare the worst out of the bunch, almost to unusable, and yet I have never come across a time when glare was an issue when using these out in the field.

That said, I have used the Zen's in all kinds of conditions also, always with the technique above that produced the most glare in the extreme condition and I have never had an issue where glare was a problem. To me it is a non issue. And I figured if I ever found myself in an extreme condition with the Zen's, I would just turn up the eyepieces and the glare would be gone. Never had to do this yet.

John

 

[eitanaltman]

I think, as others have noted, the reason it is confusing to try and assess a "consensus" opinion is that the sensitivity to glare issues is largely user dependent, things like facial structure, style of holding, pupil dilation, etc.

Different binoculars will also show different "patterns" of glare depending on the optical train, baffling, etc. For example, I found some 32mm Vortex models to show more of a bright spot of flare rather than a crescent like other bins. So an individual's particular sensitivity could exacerbate the problem with some models more than others.

I can relate my experience, as I assume you are referring to me at least partially in some comments above. I'm kind of anal about this as glare distracts me, so I test for it both outside in bright conditions (including overcast days when there is still low level glare) and inside (looking across my living room with a bright lightbulb from a lamp adjacent to the field of view).

I first owned a 7x36 ED2 that I bought as a demo a few months back, all of which Charles assured me were newer ED2 with the improved baffling. Despite the fact that the "fix" was there, I found that it was easy for me to induce a crescent of glare on the bottom 1/3 of the image. Holger notes in his review that with the fix "stray light intensity is significantly reduced, down to perhaps 30% of its original intensity"... so it is still there, just reduced. To the level typical of other binoculars according to Holger. However, for ME, it was enough to bother me such that I returned them.

Overall I found those 7x36 ED2 to be about equal to my wife's Nikon Monarch in terms of ease of inducing annoying glare/flare that would disrupt the image I was seeing. The 6x32 Vortex Viper that I also had at the time were definitely better in this respect, I could still easily induce glare/flare but it was lower intensity and not as distracting in actual viewing.

That being said, my current 8x43 ED3 are simply *superb* in controlling glare and stray light. The best I have tried. They easily beat the other binoculars I have had at the same time, including a Vortex Viper 8x32 HD, Vortex Fury 6.5x32, Theron Wapiti 8x42 LT, Zen-Ray Vista 8x42, and the aforementioned Monarch.

The Vista, Fury, and Wapiti are all in the same ballpark as the 7x36 ED2 in my experience -- easy to induce glare/flare in tough conditions, but fine in most circumstances. So I would term the "fixed" 7x36 ED2 to be average-ish, but not horrible, in this respect, and agree that they are pretty much typical compared to similarly priced bins.

The Viper HD was above average, and as noted my current 8x43 ED3 are outstanding. It is very difficult to induce distracting glare, and I can only do it under the toughest conditions (e.g., pointing almost directly at the sun or a very bright glare). I would imagine it is the equal of many alphas in this respect, although I haven't tested side-by-side to confirm.

 

[brocknroller]

"Ghost

My first sample 7x36 ED2 had the worst "veiling glare" I'd ever seen in a bin. But just to show that this wasn't completely subjective, I don't think we would have heard such a big "buzz" about it with even experts like Holger and EDz weighing on it if it wasn't exceptionally bad. Nor would have ZR been forced to provide a quick fix to the problem.

The baffled pair I had next much improved the problem. Yes, there was still some flare

 

[brocknroller]

"Ghost in the Machine"

My first sample 7x36 ED2 had the worst "veiling glare" I'd ever seen in a bin. But this wasn't completely subjective. I don't think we would have heard such a big "buzz" about it on binocular Websites, with even experts like Holger and EDz weighing in, if it weren't an exceptionally bad problem in an otherwise exceptionally good bin. Nor would have ZR been forced to provide a quick fix to the problem.

The problem was much improved in the better baffled pair of ED2s I had next. Yes, there was still some flare in the 7x36 ED2 v.2, and it was a bit more than I see in my porros, but not so bad that I couldn't see birds or couldn't reduce it further by shifting my eye position just a nudge.

OTOH, the excessive pincushion in the 7x36 ED2 was much more of an issue for me.

As far as it having more flare than competing models? What competing models? Which other brand has a 7x36 ED roof bin with 9* FOV?

I haven't tried the ED3, so I can't say if the flare is improved further, but even if it is at the same level as the ED2 v. 2, it wouldn't stop me from buying one, but excessive pincushion would. I don't like "rolling bowl" any more than "rolling ball".

I hope to try the 7x43 ED3 sometime, because the 7x36 ED2 had the "cleanest" centerfield I've seen in a bin. No CA while looking a robin perched on a thick power cable against a bright, cloudy background. Perfect bin for the winter months.

No bin is perfect, not even alphas. You add up the "pros" and "cons" and weight them according to your preferences. If the pros outweigh the cons by a significant margin, you learn to live with the cons or find a bin with an even better ratio of pros to cons.

The ZR ED bins represent a great value. If you can live with the edge distortions in the ED2 v. 2., the sharp, bright, clean on-axis image and very good ergonomics are worth the trade-off.

However, if you're the kind of person who simply cannot tolerate a slight crescent-shaped flare at the bottom edge with a low hanging sun, and that outweighs the pros, then the ZR EDs may not be for you.

But it's something you are going to need to evaluate yourself. Not even a consensus of opinion is going to help if you have a particular sensitivity to flare or to CA or to excessive pincushion or to "rolling ball" or to wide diameter eyecups, etc.

Reviews and comments are good starting point, but if you know you have particular "issues" with bins only some "hang time" with the bin will tell you need to know.

Brock

 

[bh46118]

These are indisputable facts that anyone comparing optics, be they novice or expert, need to understand. Reviews are great, but even if you either can't, or don't want to try to describe every aspect of what you see through a particular optic, your eyes will tell you very quickly if the optic is of poor quality. You always have a reference standard with you by just looking through your eyes.

Bruce

But it's something you are going to need to evaluate yourself. Not even a consensus of opinion is going to help if you have a particular sensitivity to flare or to CA or to excessive pincushion or to "rolling ball" or to wide diameter eyecups, etc.

Reviews and comments are good starting point, but if you know you have particular "issues" with bins only some "hang time" with the bin will tell you need to know.

Brock

 

[black crow]

I have stray light issues, glare/flare, issues with my 7x36 and also minor black out issues. More so than with any other of my bins. I have to be somewhat careful on how I hold them to my eyes. I'm getting better at this and it's becoming less of an issue but it will always be there. Still, they are the bins I pick to hike with more than any others. In fact I have all kinds of little issues with them as many of you remember. But the center optical quality and FOV and how they feel in my hands makes them a pleasure to have in spite of all these other issues. Frankly it surprises the heck out of me. I've thought about returning them a dozen times at least and then did comparisons with my other bins and have changed my mind every time. I'm about to send in my warranty card now.

I've actually been toying with trying the 9x36 while they still have a few demo's left.

Update: Just ordered the 9x36.

 

[Alexis Powell]

Since I detect a hint of apologetics in the air, I just want to point out that although some users can use glare-prone binoculars without experiencing the problem, there are plenty of better-designed bins that don't have issues with glare regardless of who is using them or how they are held (This isn't meant to be a comment one way or the other as to the performance of the latest Zen Ray products since I haven't tried them, but I sure saw the crescents in the first generation 7x36 model). I've also seen suggestion that the problem is inevitable when providing a wide angle view, but that is definitely not the case. In my tests, the Bushnell 8x42 Legend Ultra HD, which has a FOV of 426 ft, does as well or better than alphas bins in backlit situations, and it also doesn't suffer from the crescents under bright sky low-light conditions.

--AP

 

[black crow]

I'm not sure but it seems most of the problems occurred with the 7x36 and that 477'fov. I haven't heard a lot of negative comments with the 8x43 which has about the same Fov as the bushnell. Or did I miss something?

 

[FrankD]

Alexis,

I am glad you pointed that out. There certainly are bins that don't display glare issues despite how you hold them or what the user's facial dimensions are. I certainly won't argue that point. My comments earlier were specifically in reference to the first production run of the 7x36s. I, for one, did not notice the issue until someone pointed it out here on the forum and it was nowhere near as bad, in my case, as it was being described. After a great deal of discussion with Steve and Charles we determined that it had much to do with the way we were using the bins because of our facial features.

As for the Legend Ultra, I really do wish I could get my hands on a pair that are similar to the one that you finally ended up with and that RJM is so fond of. Every pair I owned/tried just had such poor edge performance that I couldn't get comfortable with the sweet spot performance as a result. Hopefully that is something that Bushnell addresses with future production runs.

 

[Fireform]

I was one of those for whom the glare in the original 7x36 was a deal breaker. I bought the ED2 version of the same glass when it came out and they were much improved, though I could still see some glare in particularly demanding circumstances. This was on a par with some other very high-dollar glasses I've owned, though. I used them happily until they were stolen out of my pickup.

I'm tempted to get a pair of the 9x36 for the truck again.

 

[black crow]

I feel the same. The glare is there at certain times but not a big problem. They still have a couple of demo pairs left last time I looked of the 9x36. I just got a pair and they're great.

 

[Ripantuck]

Sorry, I asked the question and then disappeared, but I had an angry gall bladder that had to be excised which put me in a weakened state for a couple of weeks.

That said, I appreciate all the comments and info. from everyone. I should point out that my eyes are particularly sensitive to glare, with or without binoculars, especially since I had laser surgery a few years ago.

A couple days ago, I was at a local park looking at birds and there were a couple species of woodpecker around as well as robins cardinals and crows. I was using my son's B&L 8X42 Discoverer Porros, a binocular with a wide field of view but supposedly very good coatings. I wasn't getting any noticeable added veiling glare any more than my naked eyes, but the colors on the woodpeckers were hard to pick out when looking in the general direction of the low sun. As usual it seemed to me that this glare I saw that was muting the colors, seemed to be due to the sun glinting off pollen or dust in the air. The binoculars seemed to improve the color contrast a bit because it was worse when looking at the birds without the binoculars, but it didn't eliminate the glare.

However, I have used telescopes that seem to actually eliminate the glare under similar conditions, for example Leupold rifle scopes. I have been known to carry one of these around by itself and use it as a hand held for bird and nature watching.

I do have a 10X42 Bushnell Legend Ultra HD binocular, but I accidentally scratched one of the lenses and I am trying to get it fixed now so I haven't compared them in the conditions I had in that recent outing. But when I did use them, they did seem to be very good with glare.

I was kind of hoping that someone would discuss the new super black coatings that have recently been developed by several places including a couple of Universities and NASA. There are enormous differences in black and many of these coatings are being developed for use in increasing the efficiency of solar cells. The NASA graphene is supposedly capable of absorbing 99% of light within the visible spectrum and it is only a couple molecules thick. There is also a black silicon coating that is being developed by a company called Natcore technology for use in solar cells and I suspect they would be happy to sell their patented process to a binocular manufacturer simply as a way to get noticed. It is being developed to be an economical way to increase the efficiency of solar cells so it would not expensive. However, I am not certain if it is significantly blacker than the present coatings used by binocular manufacturers, but my guess is that it probably is significantly blacker than anything being presently used by any binocular manufacturer.

Supposedly 80% is about the max absorption in most present day black coatings. I just wonder how much difference the blackness of the interior coatings makes.

Rip

 

[CarlTN]

Has anyone ever fashioned hoods for the objective end of these binoculars? I've noticed just holding my hand out over the front, makes a big difference, when looking at landscape that is below the horizon of a brightly diffuse sky.

 

[Ripantuck]

Never tried it on any binocular, but seems like a good idea.

Rip