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Newbie questions.....Monarch ATB or X or LX L (2 Viewers)

This dispute about Nikon's CA is quite old and the oldest analysis I know of comments favorably about the ability of the Nikon HG to control CA. This analysis was done by Kimmo Absetz as far back as April 2003 in ALULA. It is in the paragraph on COLOR RENDITION. CA is "very low." (And overall better than the 8 x 32 EL.)

http://www.lintuvaruste.fi/hinnasto/optiikkaarvostelu/optics_7_nikonHG_swaro32EL_GB.shtml

You will find the same conclusion in his comments one year later on the Nikon 10 x 32 HG and the 10 x 42 SE. See link below.

http://www.lintuvaruste.fi/hinnasto/optiikkaarvostelu/optics_8_Leicaultravid_GB.shtml The comments can be found in the paragraph discussing the binoculars.

Has the reputed excessive CA in Nikon Top of the line binoculars become an "optics legend" over the years?

Bob

I disagreed with Kimmo in 2000 and I still disagree, but of course my opinion is based on my own experience: different perceptions by different people. I told this story before, and I tell it again. I bought my SE in 2000. I bought it at a shop in Dallas, TX, where they matched Internet prices and I was able to compare a lot of bins for a long time. My last comparison was between 8x32 SE and 8x42 LX. I was outside with a staff member, and we watched a Martin house on their property. Unpainted galvanized metal on it reflected sunlight. Without changing my position, I switched back and forth repeatedly between the two bins. Through the SE the metal was plain silver-gray galvanized metal, but through the LX the metal was magenta. No matter how I adjusted the LX against my eyes, nor how I looked through it, I got magenta. I bought the SE.

I have looked through the 8x32 and 8x42 LX many times since then, and I still get more CA than I have ever seen through my SE (or my EL for that matter). Despite the CA, I think the 8x42 LX is a fine binocular, and at $599 for a refurb from EO right now, it is a steal.
 
This dispute about Nikon's CA is quite old and the oldest analysis I know of comments favorably about the ability of the Nikon HG to control CA. This analysis was done by Kimmo Absetz as far back as April 2003 in ALULA. It is in the paragraph on COLOR RENDITION. CA is "very low." (And overall better than the 8 x 32 EL.)

http://www.lintuvaruste.fi/hinnasto/optiikkaarvostelu/optics_7_nikonHG_swaro32EL_GB.shtml

You will find the same conclusion in his comments one year later on the Nikon 10 x 32 HG and the 10 x 42 SE. See link below.

http://www.lintuvaruste.fi/hinnasto/optiikkaarvostelu/optics_8_Leicaultravid_GB.shtml The comments can be found in the paragraph discussing the binoculars.

Has the reputed excessive CA in Nikon Top of the line binoculars become an "optics legend" over the years?

Bob

Bob,

Only a "legend" to those like yourself who are lucky enough not see CA in bins. Apparently, Kimmo is another lucky dog! Then again, compared to the pre-FL Victories, it may have seemed relatively better since there were reports of excessive CA in that model too, which is why Zeiss added the FL glass.

Although there was a flurry of naysayers last year on the Zeiss forum, who denied their pre-FL's Victories had excessive CA, so for those lucky dogs, the CA in the pre-FL Victories is also the stuff of legends.

I agree with Henry about the level of CA in the LX/LXLs and also about them being a great bargain if you don't see the "rolling ball" and are not bothered by the CA. Very sharp and color saturated images. In fact, I liked the 10x42 LX so much that I bought a pair even though I knew it had the "rolling ball" and that I would not adjust to it since I had a friend's sample for a month. But it had uneven coatings, one side had missing coatings (two white reflections where there should have been green ones and the difference was noticeable by the lower contrast in that side).

Nikon said they couldn't fix the coatings, because they were a "manufacturing defect". Of course, they could have offered to send me a new sample like they did Jerry (NDHunter) when he called about the loose focuser on his EDG, but perhaps they didn't need to show goodwill back then as much as they need to now. Or I might have gotten a newbie customer service rep who didn't know how to respond properly to a complaint about poor workmanship. So I sent them back to the seller.

I never tried the 10x32 LX model that Kimmo reviewed, but if the 8x32 LX had noticeable CA for me, I'm sure the 10x would show even more.

Brock
 
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Then again, compared to the pre-FL Victories, it may have seemed relatively better since there were reports of excessive CA in that model too, which is why Zeiss added the FL glass.

To got even further off topic ...

This is another one of those sort of legends: changing to a ED glass (FL) objective reduced longitudinal CA. But the CA most people were complaining about in the Victory 40mm models was lateral CA (the one that goes with eye placement). But in the Kimmo review he didn't find it that bad (wasn't the 10x40B his bin until he switched to the Canon 10x42 IS?).

Longitudinal may have been up a bit (this was a short bin) but lateral was were the real issue was. Even current FLs are not perfect in this regard (and I like FLs!): it's most noticeable in the 10x and not very much in the 7x.

So with the LX you need to distinguish between longitudinal (which I usually see more as "sharpening up" the image) and lateral (which I see as annoying color fringes).
 
Brocknroller wrote:
I agree with Henry about the level of CA in the LX/LXLs and also about them being a great bargain if you don't see the "rolling ball" and are not bothered by the CA. Very sharp and color saturated images. In fact, I liked the 10x42 LX so much that I bought a pair .......But it had uneven coatings, one side had missing coatings (two white reflections where there should have been green ones and the difference was noticeable by the lower contrast in that side).

Kevin Purcell wrote:
So with the LX you need to distinguish between longitudinal (which I usually see more as "sharpening up" the image) and lateral (which I see as annoying color fringes).

I could see the "rolling ball" effect with 10x42LX though with the replacement 10x42 Premier/LXL I seem to have become accustomed to it. My sample of the LX did not have identical coatings in the oculars. I have discussed this with Brock elsewhere.

I could barely see lateral CA in the LX but reading about it in Birdforum seems to to have reinforced my perception of CA in the LXL. As Henry Link has observed, I can see lateral CA quite near the centre in the LXL, almost entirely due to pupil displacement and it is entirely controllable. I am insensitive to CA even though I can see it.

I think the LXL is sharp across the field but lacks the razor-sharp centre of the best porros (even older porros such as the Zeiss Jena Jenoptem 10x50, verified after being corrected on this score by other members in previous discussions) and the best current European roofs. It is a good glass because the overall view is peaceful with natural colours and contrast even though it is bright enough; and it is a bargain.
 
OK - I received my bins. Boy the eye cup covers are REALLY a joke! Guess you have to put the cover on and then open the tubes to create tension? Can't imagine trying to keep up with the cover while birding.

More serious question - my invoice says "Nikon Premier 8x42 LX L" - the actual bins only say "8x42 7degree L" - the reburb box says "8x42 HG L DCF" - and the manual appears to cover a multitude of bins. How do I know that the bins I received are Premier LX L's?

Also, what years were the Premier LX L's made? These bins appear to have serial # 000467...

It's pouring rain here so I'm not able to do much testing (searching for CA will have to wait till another day! 8-P)

Thanks!
 
Karen,

I'd suggest a call to Nikon and see what they tell you. I guess the big question is "how do you like them?". Actually with a factory refurbish they could likely have started with an L and upgraded it.

Standard lens covers with most binoculars are sort of a joke. I'd say go to Eagle Optics and get the appropriate Bushwacker flip up lens covers. I use these and like them a lot.
 
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....More serious question - my invoice says "Nikon Premier 8x42 LX L" - the actual bins only say "8x42 7degree L" - the reburb box says "8x42 HG L DCF" - and the manual appears to cover a multitude of bins. How do I know that the bins I received are Premier LX L's?

Also, what years were the Premier LX L's made? These bins appear to have serial # 000467...

It's pouring rain here so I'm not able to do much testing (searching for CA will have to wait till another day! 8-P)

Thanks!
Nikon's nomenclature for these binoculars is hardly illuminating but you have definitely got the LX_L. I cannot date the binoculars by their serial number but the LX_L series should have the letters BV together with the serial number. The preceding LX series had the letters AG with the serial number. Refurbished binoculars usually have a tiny silver or gold punch mark beside the serial number as well.

LX_L is the label for the US market; outside the US these are labelled HG_L. Nikon's generic description for this entire series of binoculars is HG = High Grade. Hence the label HG_L = High Grade Light, D = Dach (German for roof [prism type] CF = Centre Focus)

Around the time the EDG series binoculars were introduced, Nikon rebadged the LX_L as Premier, dropping the LX_L label. "Premier" has also been used with the LX and SE series in Nikon advertising but never actually appeared on the badge, before the latest change.

Please do not be alarmed by the descriptions of "rolling ball" and "chromatic aberration". Many people in their twenties and thirties do not notice any problems with most binoculars, as long as they are properly adjusted, because their vision is much better and more adaptable than that of people in their forties and fifties. Even though I prefer a sharper centrefield, I doubt if there is any binocular available with a comparable all-round capability at this price.

Chhayanat
 
Thanks, Chhayanat,

Lots of great info! My bins do indeed have the BV after the serial number and a gold "punch" indicating refurb.

Considering what I paid - I think the LX L's are fanatastic! Much more quality bin than I had ever hoped I'd get!

BTW - hubby's demo Monarch X bins arrived today. He will get to try them out tomorrow! Maybe we will get some sun! Somehow I don't think I'll want to trade bins with him! o:D

Also, you can see some of my bird photography on my website. Lots of hummers (singles, pairs and more), and eagles and other birds from Alaska.
 
Just a quick note - I'm supposed to be painting my husband's office!

First, I want to say a sincere thank you to all who took the time to give me their best information and usage results. Yes, I fully realize that results Can and DO vary by individual. However, I rather enjoyed your passionate comments. I especially liked the motorcycle analogy. While living in Los Angeles, I got my motorcycle license then got my first-ever bike - a Suzuki Intruder 800! :eek!: (My husband was afraid I would out-grow a smaller bike to quickly!) Try learning to ride on Los Angeles freeways!

Second - remember these are my first pair of bins and I only paid $600 for them......

Third, I have been a photographer for many years and own at least 2 Nikon lenses costing over $2K and one lens costing over $6K. I am very familiar with CA - it is worse on some lenses and better on others. At least in photography I can correct or eliminate CA using s/w.

So....

I had 2 or 3 moments of about 30 seconds each of sunlight! I checked the bins using a back-lit black wrought iron bird finial on our post feeder system. And yes, I found CA very noticeable in the LX L. Thanks to Chhayanat's suggestion, I could indeed move my head a little to reduce the CA - or move it to the other side of the object!

So? Yes, CA will be evident when viewing in strong back-lit situations. Since I have not birded much yet, I don't know if or how much this will bother me. Further viewing is necessary to make a final decision. However, at this point I don't believe that this negative offsets the sharpness and light gathering abilities of these bins. In fact, couldn't CA be even worse with lesser quality bins?

I have not yet had a chance to really use the bins for more than a minute or so. Thus I have no opinion as yet on rolling ball or usage fatigue or ????

All in all - I am still very impressed with the LX Ls and will hopefully get the painting done while the weather is bad and be able to get out and use the bins when sunny days return.
 
Outstanding photography Karen! Really outstanding. :t:

Bless you!

Thank you for taking a look! Photographing the hummers was a lot of fun and being with and shooting the eagles and grizzlies in Alaska was an awesome experience!

I tried posting a couple of photos on this forum of a red headed woodpecker - in the North Amer gallery - but they seem to have "disappeared". I couldn't find them anywhere.
 
So? Yes, CA will be evident when viewing in strong back-lit situations. Since I have not birded much yet, I don't know if or how much this will bother me. Further viewing is necessary to make a final decision. However, at this point I don't believe that this negative offsets the sharpness and light gathering abilities of these bins. In fact, couldn't CA be even worse with lesser quality bins?

x2 on photography. Awesome stuff.

I find with top quality optics that you can focus out most of the CA. This is definitely true for LXL I have used, as well as an old Pentax I had, and a Kowa spotting scope. All incredibly sharp optics. But there will be situations where it comes up. Think looking at Great Egret with an overcast sky. The situations where I might have missed an ID where CA was involved were in conditions where ID would be very difficult anyway, like sea watching where you're essentially looking at silhouettes at some distance.

To paraphrase the old NASA saying: Sharp, CA free or Cheap - pick any two.

Then add image flatness, sharp to the edges, smooth and well honed mechanics, design that doesn't look like a NASCAR (yes, I prefer understated branding), company that will likely be around in 5 or 20 years, warranty, will have good resale value, comes with a decent rainguard, weighs less than a brick and is not susceptible to rain.

Have fun with your new bins.
 
Karen,

That's a spot on description of how lateral color looks in binoculars. In my experience it's connected to certain designs more than cost. Cheap simple Porros usually have very little compared to some expensive complex roofs, but the very worst I've seen was a pair of CHEAP complex roofs.

Henry
 
Just a quick note - I'm supposed to be painting my husband's office!

First, I want to say a sincere thank you to all who took the time to give me their best information and usage results. Yes, I fully realize that results Can and DO vary by individual. However, I rather enjoyed your passionate comments. I especially liked the motorcycle analogy. While living in Los Angeles, I got my motorcycle license then got my first-ever bike - a Suzuki Intruder 800! :eek!: (My husband was afraid I would out-grow a smaller bike to quickly!) Try learning to ride on Los Angeles freeways!

Second - remember these are my first pair of bins and I only paid $600 for them......

Third, I have been a photographer for many years and own at least 2 Nikon lenses costing over $2K and one lens costing over $6K. I am very familiar with CA - it is worse on some lenses and better on others. At least in photography I can correct or eliminate CA using s/w.

So....

I had 2 or 3 moments of about 30 seconds each of sunlight! I checked the bins using a back-lit black wrought iron bird finial on our post feeder system. And yes, I found CA very noticeable in the LX L. Thanks to Chhayanat's suggestion, I could indeed move my head a little to reduce the CA - or move it to the other side of the object!

So? Yes, CA will be evident when viewing in strong back-lit situations. Since I have not birded much yet, I don't know if or how much this will bother me. Further viewing is necessary to make a final decision. However, at this point I don't believe that this negative offsets the sharpness and light gathering abilities of these bins. In fact, couldn't CA be even worse with lesser quality bins?

I have not yet had a chance to really use the bins for more than a minute or so. Thus I have no opinion as yet on rolling ball or usage fatigue or ????

All in all - I am still very impressed with the LX Ls and will hopefully get the painting done while the weather is bad and be able to get out and use the bins when sunny days return.

Karen Le Butler Kid,

I tried two 10x42 LX samples and one 10x42 LXL, and the LXL had more chromatic aberration than the LX. I've read other reports/reviews/rumors/castigations that cited the same difference, but this is not to say that CA was absent in the LX, just more noticeable in the LXL.

Since I can nitpick now that you have them and know that you have a 30-day return period, the other thing I didn't find "Pleasant" about the changeover to the LXL version was that on brightly lit objects, the contrast (and detail) was overwhelmed by the apparent brightness, which is greater than in the LX.

I'm not sure if the actual light transmission on the LXL is greater than the LX, but the increase in apparent brightness seems to be due to the different coatings, which are "warmer". Reds appear a bit organey and blues a bit purplish compared to the LX, which has colors are more "true to life". The upsides are that this warm bias makes colors look brighter and the overall image brighter on overcast days.

I would have gladly accepted those trade-offs for the 8 oz. lighter weight. At 36 oz. the LX felt like an albatross around my neck, and it fatigued my Olive Oil arms from lifting it over and over again, particularly since the weight is more centrally concentrated in a closed bridge roof than an open bridge roof or a porro.

While I'm on a nitpicking roll, I also found the softer and more pleasant-to-the-touch armor on the LXL scuffed more easily than the LX. I used my LXL very lightly for only two weeks before I sold it and yet it was already starting to show wear marks on the top of the bin where the armoring is not "pebbled" but smooth.

So if you're not sure you're going to keep these and have a long 30-day return period to try them out, I recommend that you wear gloves when using them or the seller might give you a hard time about the wear marks (if they don't already have them, you said these were refurbs, correct?). Almost every photo of "pre-owned" LXLs I've seen for sale showed the housing scuffed. Not so with the LXs, which sometimes look new.

Very good price, btw. I bought the 10x42 LX with the uneven coatings for $600 and thought that was a bargain. The 10x42 LX L cost almost $1,000, and again, I thought that was a good deal since the typical retail price at the time was $1,400 and these were "demos," but they looked new.

As I think someone mentioned, prices have come down on the LX and LXL so that price drop follows with refurbs, demos, and used samples.

Ideally, I'd prefer the LX optics in the LXL housing with the harder LX rubber armoring. But as my friend Steve says, it's all "mute" since the dreaded "rolling ball" was the deal killer for me.

That's the LX/LX L Kool-Aid Acid Test, IMO. The rest are trifles by comparison, but I mentioned them for purposes of "full disclosure" and because, despite not being a woodpecker, it is in my nature to nitpick.

Btw, from your avatar, it looks like your IPD is wide rather than narrow. I think of greater concern is that your bubble nose will not fit between the eyecups. :)

Update us when it stops raining. It just stopped raining here, now it's snowing..

Brock Le Nitpicker
 
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Or to go a bit further how many people are CA sensitive, or affected by rolling ball?

Well, I'm someone who's never been bothered by the CA in the much maligned Zeiss Victory 10x40, the one before they introduced the FL. I still use mine, and I like them a lot. I usually don't see any CA with the Victory, and even on those rare occasions when I do see it, it doesn't bother me. However, I couldn't get on with the Leica Trinovid 10x42 BA/BN because I see a lot of CA in those, and yes, I find it quite objectionable.

Funny, isn't it? There seem to be so many individual preferences involved, it's quite amazing.

Hermann
 
Brock Le Nitpicker,

Wow! I've gone from "pinhead" to "bubble nose"! ???? :eek!:

Anyway, I agree that the smooth armour scuff very easily. There are about 3 scuffs now - can't tell if I did them are they were there when I received the bins.

I found two pair of LX L's used - one on B&H and on eBay for $900 - without the Nikon refurb! LX L new was $1,300. So....$600 for refurb seemed very reasonable.

I hope to get outside in a couple of days to really try them out! I hope to determine whether CA and/or rolling ball lessen my happiness with these bins.

(BTW - We are painting hubby's office. Today I cut in the ceiling! UGH! Next is a second ceiling coat- then 2 coats on the walls!)

However, compared to my hubby's demo Monarch X's for $330 - I REALLY like the LX L's!

I will probably get the Eagle Optics rainguards to replace the pitiful Nikon covers.
 
Funny, isn't it? There seem to be so many individual preferences involved, it's quite amazing.

Hermann

Hermann,

Things that set off one person are non-important to another!

It's all about trade off'd! Even "measureable" problems may not be a real problem with normal use! I'm looking for bins that have a great cost/quality ratio and will serve me well for many years to come!
 
Brock Le Nitpicker,

Wow! I've gone from "pinhead" to "bubble nose"! ???? :eek!:

Anyway, I agree that the smooth armour scuff very easily. There are about 3 scuffs now - can't tell if I did them are they were there when I received the bins.

I found two pair of LX L's used - one on B&H and on eBay for $900 - without the Nikon refurb! LX L new was $1,300. So....$600 for refurb seemed very reasonable.

I hope to get outside in a couple of days to really try them out! I hope to determine whether CA and/or rolling ball lessen my happiness with these bins.

(BTW - We are painting hubby's office. Today I cut in the ceiling! UGH! Next is a second ceiling coat- then 2 coats on the walls!)

However, compared to my hubby's demo Monarch X's for $330 - I REALLY like the LX L's!

I will probably get the Eagle Optics rainguards to replace the pitiful Nikon covers.

Karen:

Brock means well, of all the posts on BF, he seems to have the largest
sensitivity to the rolling ball. I have yet to induce it in any binocular I've tried.

I do remember someone did refer to him as "Brocknrollingballer', ;) I am not
sure who that was but someone may know.

From what I've seen you post, you are so far happy with your purchase, and
good for you. Enjoy your quality binoculars.

Jerry
 
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