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Poll - Do you agree or disagree with the AOS's recent decision to abandon the use of eponymous bird names? (4 Viewers)

The AOS is proposing to change all English bird names currently named after people. Do you agree?

  • Agree

    Votes: 95 25.7%
  • Disagree

    Votes: 219 59.3%
  • No strong feelings either way.

    Votes: 50 13.6%
  • Don't know, need more information

    Votes: 5 1.4%

  • Total voters
    369
You're not wrong. But to change something, you have to have a valid case that logically and factually enumerates the problems with the status quo, and demonstrates that the change will provide benefits. The AOS has done neither

I think this is one of the key problems with the discussion - some participants clearly hold this as some kind of universal truth, but some don't

I find this is a very common source of misunderstanding, when people have an opinion that they think is obvious and valid, while it's still just their opinion and nothing more.
 
Your quote of ALL historic eponyms is self-evidently a daft sweeping generalisation regardless of its meaning. That is my only narrative. Any serious response would concede that.

All the best

Paul
Your response included a .pdf that responds to people who e.g. want to have names changed because of racism.
I don't belong in that box you put me in. Your .pdf counters the racism argument, but I never used that argument.
So I won't bother discussing with you anymore.
 
There are major flaws in the reasoning, just some:
"An oft-proposed alternate name for Kirtland’s warbler (named for Ohio naturalist Jared Kirtland) is jack pine warbler. Jack pine’s scientific name is Pinus banksiana. The specific epithet honors English naturalist Sir Joseph Banks. Dig deep enough into his history, and flaws will be found. "

The author mixes up English names (an alternative for Kirtland's warbler) with the scientific name for Jack Pine and argues that 'dig deep and flaws will be found'. The only flaw I see is mixing up things in his reasoning. I often see (in this very topic as well) that contra-change arguments try to mix the subject of discussion (ENGLISH names) with scientific names (names that aren't changed and aren't the subject of the discussion), and don't (or don't want to) understand the difference.

Another example:
"Many non-eponymous names are hardly descriptive. Who knows what mallard means?"
That's a false argument: You cannot argue that non-eponymous names are not an improvement, because some non-eponymous names are non-descriptive: ALL eponymous names are NON-descriptive. So ANY change towards descriptive names, is an improvement in description.

Another example:
"One huge asset that ornithology has that very few other disciplines in the natural sciences have is a stable system of English names."
Wrong. As I mentioned in this topic (or the other), English names are in constant flux. Just read here: English Name Updates – IOC World Bird List . The last 2 updates saw 5 eponyms being erased: Cabanis, Major Mitchell, Hunstein, Cockerell, Worcester.

As a consequence, the author states:
"A large-scale change in English names will result in years of confusion, outdated field guides, and numerous other long-lasting hassles."

Current field guides get refreshed / new prints every couple of years. I am using my 3rd version of the Svensson guide, and I haven't even openened the last one (still using the first with all my notes). And this is without major name changes: new versions come out because better drawings / ID features / subspecies are depicted. I wonder if Americans still use their 20-year old field guides ignoring 10-20 splits in all those years?

one more:
"Legions of buildings, cities and towns, endowments and scholarships, streets, and much more are named honorifically. "
As mentioned (e.g. by me), comparing a building, city, ... (or any man-made object) to a living object when arguing how something could be named, is apples vs. oranges. We can do better with birds than we often do with streets. If the standard is this low (naming living objects, some having existed even before humans existed, after one single individual human being... I just find it weak to name something extraodinary in nature with a human-centric name. But that's me.

last:
"Resistance to the proposed AOS name changes has been widespread and opponents probably greatly outnumber proponents. To me and many others, the logic behind purging eponyms is largely baseless — at least its advocates have failed to make much of a case. The logic behind arguments for retaining existing names makes far more sense and maintains long-established stability."

It seems the nay-saying author resorts to the only argument I see over and over again: stability, status quo, being afraid of any change. Just turn things around: the logic behind keeping eponyms is largely baseless, and those who advocate the status quo have failed to make much of a case. IOC doesn't keep the status quo, even though they say they are neutral, eponyms are going out, but Americans want to keep it for whatever reason.
 
I think this is one of the key problems with the discussion - some participants clearly hold this as some kind of universal truth, but some don't

I find this is a very common source of misunderstanding, when people have an opinion that they think is obvious and valid, while it's still just their opinion and nothing more.
Just so. That 'truth' is also variable and in the eye of it's defender or critic. If you suit your arguments on what either you perceive or want others to believe as the truth, then it is quite flexible. Why do some politicians get away with half the rubbish they spout? Especially when they have to tow the party line handed down by their past and present party leadership.

Scientists should, on the other hand, base their arguments on scientific analysis and offer it up to further critical analysis by their peers. Not provide a fait accompli and demand that others of their ilk simply roll over and accept it! It is not acceptable that a panel of reknowned scientists attempt to do such a thing. This is why I was sceptical whether they or not they had abandoned science, or were ever real scientists in my earlier entry.

Any skilled person will tell you, the higher they get in their organisation the less the use their trade skills and the more they become firstly managers and secondly politicians. Sitting on their panels, they may have forgotten that they are firstly scientists. Unless of course that was just the route they chose to become politicians all along.

What the AOS have done has nothing to do with biology, conservation, or biodiversity and environmental protection. Their argumentation is lamentable at best and kneejerk to boot! This is not some political game game. It is life and death for many, many species and habitats, not just the avifauna.

As others have said in far more suitable words than I can put to paper, or pixels, they have diverted the arguments for the protection of biodiversity and habitat away from the birds that need it and placed themselves in the center of attention.

They have become the argument. It is all about them. Is that what they wanted after all?
 
What the AOS have done has nothing to do with biology, conservation, or biodiversity and environmental protection. Their argumentation is lamentable at best and kneejerk to boot! This is not some political game game. It is life and death for many, many species and habitats, not just the avifauna.
Giving English names to birds isn't a 100% scientific process.
The very reason you (and me) are able to discuss this, is because the process of naming a bird in English is a process with several inputs, and science is just one of them. Any change in a bird's name involves the 'politics' (if you want to use that word) of discussion, input from different people, be it scientists, well-respected birders and authors of field guides, language experts, ...

So if you want to complain that names aren't 100% based on scientific arguments, you fail to understand that, while scientific arguments are still important and leading, they're only part of the name-giving process.
 
living objects
I personally, do not view endangered lives as objects and never will. I also see this whole argument as detrimental to these living beings and that by spending time diverting the argument and funds away from these lifeform's chances of survival is reducing their chances of survival.

Humanity is part of biology. A thing many seem to forget.
 
I personally, do not view endangered lives as objects and never will. I also see this whole argument as detrimental to these living beings and that by spending time diverting the argument and funds away from these lifeform's chances of survival is reducing their chances of survival.

Humanity is part of biology. A thing many seem to forget.
I see you're picking on the fact English is not my mother tongue.
Anyway, the (very false) argument that this takes away time / energy / money from saving endangered wildlife is kind of a desperate one. Even if it is taking away energy /... I am happy to see that the nay-sayers move on and save endangered wildlife instead of holding on to their precious eponyms.

Humanity is part of biology. the name of a single individual of the human species, out of billions that live and have lived before, is not a good way to represent a full set of living organisms of the same species.
 
Giving English names to birds isn't a 100% scientific process.
The very reason you (and me) are able to discuss this, is because the process of naming a bird in English is a process with several inputs, and science is just one of them. Any change in a bird's name involves the 'politics' (if you want to use that word) of discussion, input from different people, be it scientists, well-respected birders and authors of field guides, language experts, ...

So if you want to complain that names aren't 100% based on scientific arguments, you fail to understand that, while scientific arguments are still important and leading, they're only part of the name-giving process.
How relevent is that when species are becoming extinct, due to humanity? Birds don't care what we call them. This whole bruhaha is diverting the conversation and therefore the effort to save them away from their chances of survival.
 
How relevent is that when species are becoming extinct, due to humanity? Birds don't care what we call them. This whole bruhaha is diverting the conversation and therefore the effort to save them away from their chances of survival.
Exactly, birds don't care renaming. They didn't for the last couple of 100 years when many were split / renamed. So they won't in the case of these mere 150 species.
 
I see you're picking on the fact English is not my mother tongue.
I have no idea what your native tongue is. The way you write, I automatically assumed that you were a native speaker. I apologise if I have inadvertantly found the one weakness you have displayed in you ability to converse in the language. It was not my intention.
 
I have no idea what your native tongue is. The way you write, I automatically assumed that you were a native speaker. I apologise if I have inadvertantly found the one weakness you have displayed in you ability to converse in the language. It was not my intention.
thanks.

Anyway, while you say I fail to see your point, the point for me is that changing names is a choice, and there are (imho good) arguments for that choice. Being against it is a choice as well. It's a matter of opinion, so you can debate about it endlessly, as there will never be an end point in the process that fits all opinions.
 
I think this is one of the key problems with the discussion - some participants clearly hold this as some kind of universal truth, but some don't

I find this is a very common source of misunderstanding, when people have an opinion that they think is obvious and valid, while it's still just their opinion and nothing more.
Well logic is universal, as are facts. Am I arrogant enough to say my opinion is equivalent to logic and facts? Absolutely not. But I do believe my opinion is logical and factual, or else I wouldn't hold it. Someone's opinion is right (I obviously think mine is right, you think yours is right, the AOS thinks theirs is right, etc.), so I really don't have a clue what your point is.
 
Your response included a .pdf that responds to people who e.g. want to have names changed because of racism.
I don't belong in that box you put me in. Your .pdf counters the racism argument, but I never used that argument.
So I won't bother discussing with you anymore
The AOS decision is based on the racism argument. So that is the argument we should be weighing, in order to see if their decision was good.
There are major flaws in the reasoning, just some:
"An oft-proposed alternate name for Kirtland’s warbler (named for Ohio naturalist Jared Kirtland) is jack pine warbler. Jack pine’s scientific name is Pinus banksiana. The specific epithet honors English naturalist Sir Joseph Banks. Dig deep enough into his history, and flaws will be found. "

The author mixes up English names (an alternative for Kirtland's warbler) with the scientific name for Jack Pine and argues that 'dig deep and flaws will be found'. The only flaw I see is mixing up things in his reasoning. I often see (in this very topic as well) that contra-change arguments try to mix the subject of discussion (ENGLISH names) with scientific names (names that aren't changed and aren't the subject of the discussion), and don't (or don't want to) understand the difference.
He mixes nothing up. The author understands very well the difference between English and scientific names. His point is that the name "Jack Pine Warbler" still has connections to colonialism and racism, at least according to the BN4B logic.
Another example:
"Many non-eponymous names are hardly descriptive. Who knows what mallard means?"
That's a false argument: You cannot argue that non-eponymous names are not an improvement, because some non-eponymous names are non-descriptive: ALL eponymous names are NON-descriptive. So ANY change towards descriptive names, is an improvement in description.
Once again you are misunderstanding his point. His point was, if descriptive names are the highest achievement, then we must change "Mallard", "Connecticut Warbler", and so many more. If any change toward descriptive names is good, then we must change ALL non-descriptive names.
One huge asset that ornithology has that very few other disciplines in the natural sciences have is a stable system of English names."
Wrong. As I mentioned in this topic (or the other), English names are in constant flux. Just read here: English Name Updates – IOC World Bird List . The last 2 updates saw 5 eponyms being erased: Cabanis, Major Mitchell, Hunstein, Cockerell, Worcester.
And does the AOS follow IOC? No. I'm guessing the author would not be in favor of IOC's eponym changes either.
Current field guides get refreshed / new prints every couple of years. I am using my 3rd version of the Svensson guide, and I haven't even openened the last one (still using the first with all my notes). And this is without major name changes: new versions come out because better drawings / ID features / subspecies are depicted. I wonder if Americans still use their 20-year old field guides ignoring 10-20 splits in all those years?
Field guide updates for new ID points, better drawings, or splits is irrelevant. We're talking about changing the names of 80 species. Anyone who thinks this won't cause confusion is totally daft.
and those who advocate the status quo have failed to make much of a case
We don't need to make a case. We only need to show that the AOS's case is faulty. I don't think even you agree with the AOS's reasoning for the decision. Their case is predicated on the premise that eponyms are exclusionary and racist. That has been shown to be false multiple times on this thread and also in the article you are responding to.
 
The AOS decision is based on the racism argument. So that is the argument we should be weighing, in order to see if their decision was good.
It's not my argument, so any response mentioning this when I write something, is distracting.
He mixes nothing up. The author understands very well the difference between English and scientific names. His point is that the name "Jack Pine Warbler" still has connections to colonialism and racism, at least according to the BN4B logic.
There is no reason not to invent another name, no?
Once again you are misunderstanding his point. His point was, if descriptive names are the highest achievement, then we must change "Mallard", "Connecticut Warbler", and so many more. If any change toward descriptive names is good, then we must change ALL non-descriptive names.
Descriptive names are better than eponyms. They are not the ultimate / best / nec-plus-ultra name. It's called pragmatism.
And does the AOS follow IOC? No. I'm guessing the author would not be in favor of IOC's eponym changes either.
The author misses the bigger picture, as do many Americans who rage about something that no one blinks an eye about in the rest of the world.
Field guide updates for new ID points, better drawings, or splits is irrelevant. We're talking about changing the names of 80 species. Anyone who thinks this won't cause confusion is totally daft.
I can express myself in 4 more languages with more than a 1000 words in each of them. Recently, my Brazilian local bird guide was able to communicate with me about the 150+ birds we saw in 2 days of birding, by sharing the latin names and checking those in the Merlin app. Every world birder knows the name of 5000+ species and has to re-learn approx. 20-30 English bird names every 6 months. There's a lot of drama over 80 names, it seems.
We don't need to make a case. We only need to show that the AOS's case is faulty. I don't think even you agree with the AOS's reasoning for the decision. Their case is predicated on the premise that eponyms are exclusionary and racist. That has been shown to be false multiple times on this thread and also in the article you are responding to.
You don't 'need' to show the AOS case is faulty. You 'want' to show the AOS case is not your opinion. That's fine.
 
You don't 'need' to show the AOS case is faulty. You 'want' to show the AOS case is not your opinion. That's fine.
The AOS case is patently faulty as eponyms pose no, tangible barrier to non whites, getting involved in birding as they insist they do. Their case, fails on its face.

The arrogance of the AOS in insisting that they know better than the majority of birders, is breathtaking, utterly, morally, superior attitude, the ultimate virtue signallers and I still doubt the birding credentials of any of the BN4B mob.
 
Another example:
"One huge asset that ornithology has that very few other disciplines in the natural sciences have is a stable system of English names."
Wrong. As I mentioned in this topic (or the other), English names are in constant flux. Just read here: English Name Updates – IOC World Bird List . The last 2 updates saw 5 eponyms being erased: Cabanis, Major Mitchell, Hunstein, Cockerell, Worcester.
This claim is really misleading, as at least one of those was a change due to a taxonomic lump, not just being erased "for the hell of it".
 
The AOS case is patently faulty as eponyms pose no, tangible barrier to non whites, getting involved in birding as they insist they do. Their case, fails on its face.

The arrogance of the AOS in insisting that they know better than the majority of birders, is breathtaking, utterly, morally, superior attitude, the ultimate virtue signallers and I still doubt the birding credentials of any of the BN4B mob.
That's all opinion, and that's fine (opinions can be very valid, nothing said about that).

Fact is that bird names can be given by a committee and that's the AOS. If you think that's arrogant, form your own committee.
With regards to the birding credentials of 'any of the BN4B mob', I didn't know you would have to have birding credentials and to what degree. That all sounds a bit.... elitarist.

But here we go:
BN4B Roles:

Jordan E. Rutter (she/her) = director of communication at the American Bird Conservancy. No idea about her birding credentials
Initiative Co-founder
Gabriel Foley (he/him) = Atlas coordinator for the Maryland & DC Breeding bird atlas
Initiative Co-founder
Jessica “Jess” McLaughlin (she/they) = post doc in biology, self-proclaimed bird nerd.
Historical biographies project co-lead
Alex Holt (he/they) = seems to be an artist (drawing e.g. birds), no other info.
Historical biographies project co-lead

Anyways, if we only allow people with birding credentials to name birds (or to enter this discussion), I'd like all of you to introduce yourself and mention your birding credentials before we discuss any further! :)
 
This claim is really misleading, as at least one of those was a change due to a taxonomic lump, not just being erased "for the hell of it".
I never said they were erased for the hell of it. I only stated it as a FACT that they were erased. I even explicitly said that the IOC has no policy towards erasing (they claim to have a neutral stance), but it's clear those 5 eponyms are gone.
 

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