Why no Woodpeckers in Ireland (1 Viewer)

[nialltkeogh]

Vogeljung....I merely think that the funds for this proposed re-introduction would be better off spent on a more practical conservation scheme.

I seem to recall a paper in British Birds (i think) which gave details regarding Woodpecker populations in relation to ant distribution across the UK and Ireland. Ant populations and densities are far lower in Ireland than in the UK. This could lead to any Woodpeckers present in Ireland depending more heavily on predating small bird nests which would be a detrimental outcome of a seemingly beneficial project.

I'll try and find the specific article in question.


Anyway does anybody know the current position of this project??
Is it even going ahead???

Regards,
Niall

 

[davercox]

Islands have unique ecologies. People mess with them at their peril.

Well said, Parus/Poecile/Knocker, whoever you are, I usually disagree with you about ids from songs but you are right on here.

 

[KnockerNorton]

Anyway does anybody know the current position of this project??
Is it even going ahead???

Regards,
Niall

Doubt it, presumably they'll need licences from the Irish Govt to release, and the UK Govt to catch birds, neither of which will be forthcoming on current evidence, especially if it's perceived that they're re/colonising naturally anyway. Then there's the question of money - reintroductions are very expensive. You can't just tip a bird out a cage. Not if you're going by the rules, anyway. You have to do soft-releases and long-term monitoring, all of which is labour-intensive and therefore pricey.

 

[Brosnabirder]

It's not my argument, it's TC Smout's:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/History-Nat...32948/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b/026-2550077-5353227

I didn't think you had come up with the theory about Scotland It's been doing the rounds for years.
Unless you are actually T.C. Smout

The link I posted refers to Ireland rather than Scotland.

 

[KnockerNorton]

I didn't think you had come up with the theory about Scotland It's been doing the rounds for years.
Unless you are actually T.C. Smout

The link I posted refers to Ireland rather than Scotland.

TC Smout may well be my next BirdForum moniker.....

Very annoyingly, I came up with the idea of a woodland decline in Scotland many years ago in the Bow Bar pub in Edinburgh, and casually tossed it into the conversation with Oliver Rackham and Frans Vera. I took little notice of the scholarly-looking man at the next table, with bits of twig in his hair, scribbling away as i spoke.....

 

[Brosnabirder]

TC Smout may well be my next BirdForum moniker.....

Very annoyingly, I came up with the idea of a woodland decline in Scotland many years ago in the Bow Bar pub in Edinburgh, and casually tossed it into the conversation with Oliver Rackham and Frans Vera. I took little notice of the scholarly-looking man at the next table, with bits of twig in his hair, scribbling away as i spoke.....

I worked on an archaeological dig in Clare a few years ago where another dig team uncovered a large area of fallen Scot's Pine in a bog. Much debate took place about apparent tool marks on the timber until it was concluded that it was a natural event. The tool marks? Trowel marks left during the dig!

Not really related to Woodpeckers so apologies.

Woodpecker reintroduction seems very well intentioned but more research needed IMHO

 

[Vogeljung]

Do you actually *know* much about GSW ecology, and what they do, and what they eat, and their relationship with the cavity-nesting guild?

You're posting all this stuff as it's all received wisdom, but is any of it actually true? We need evidence to decide, because people started letting muntjac deer and grey squirrels loose over here on a hunch and a romantic whim, and look where we are. And now we've got eagle owls munching hen harriers too.

Islands have unique ecologies. People mess with them at their peril.

It all sounds very bleak. Surely the IWT isn't pedalling unsound whimsy as the basis for a project. Why aren't the experts on this forum forwarding their impact information to the IWT then, because the project is 'ongoing' according to their website.

 

[KnockerNorton]

It all sounds very bleak. Surely the IWT isn't pedalling unsound whimsy as the basis for a project. Why aren't the experts on this forum forwarding their impact information to the IWT then, because the project is 'ongoing' according to their website.

It's publicity, I'm guessing. An ill thought out 'good idea' from someone with little knowledge of reintroductions or woodpeckers. IWT is a charity, a club of its members. It can say and think what it likes, and doesn't need any input from 'experts' to put a project initiative on the internet. It will still be unlikely to be approved by any of the regulating bodies.

 

[Helsinki Birder]

Vogeljung,

You keep saying "RE" -introduction.
You havent proved that woodpeckers were here in the first place.
Neither has IWT...in fact...they are claiming Lesser spotteds were here!!

Owen

 

[iolar]

Do you actually *know* much about GSW ecology, and what they do, and what they eat, and their relationship with the cavity-nesting guild? Anyone who studies hole-nesting birds in Europe knows quite a lot about GSWs, and the relationship is not benign. Your assessment of the benefits and disadvantages is very simplistic. Where is the research to support the claims that Ireland is somehow missing out? Where are the comparisons between, say, Ireland and Britain on the ecology and survival of bats, birds and fungi? You're posting all this stuff as it's all received wisdom, but is any of it actually true? We need evidence to decide, because people started letting muntjac deer and grey squirrels loose over here on a hunch and a romantic whim, and look where we are. And now we've got eagle owls munching hen harriers too.

can you prove beyond doubt that GSW existed in ireland in the recent past (last 1000 years? last 2000 years? Since the ice melted?) and that their absence now is due to man? If so, please post links to the evidence, because nobody else has seen it! And these are two of the key internationally-agreed criteria that need to be ticked off before a reintroduction can go ahead. All we seem to have is vague nods to holes in bog oaks and bones from an unspecified date.

Islands have unique ecologies. People mess with them at their peril.

Very well said KnockerNorton, introducing species that don't belong is a recipe for disaster, how many more lessons do we need before people cop on?

 

[Vogeljung]

Despite the previous posts, nobody has provided evidence that GSW did not exist in Ireland.

It is of course easy to say "Ireland does not have GSW" because we don't, but where is the evidence to say that we never did? Isn't it just too easy to dismiss the whole idea as rubbish rather than trying to establish whether they did exist here at one point.

Also, why are the wider benefits not being considered? Surely woodpeckers are part of a healthy woodland ecosystem?

 

[Helsinki Birder]

Vogeljung,

If there was evidence of GSW breeding in Ireland then it would have been found by now.

There is no folklore mentioning them.
No confirmable documentation regarding them in recent history.
No remnant population surviving into the age of bird recording(something which is very hard to believe), despite there still being large enough tracts of old growth woodland to support Redstarts, Pied Flycatchers and Woodlarks into the early 20th century and beyond (though not in the case of woodlarks).
They are not a secretive species. There were enough reputable ornitologists around back then to find them if they were there.(they found woodlarks...a species much more difficult to ID and find).

All this IS evidence of them not being here to begin with.

Your argument is based, seemingly entirely, on the opinion of an organisation which believes that LESSER spotted woodpeckers were here??
But yet you are arguing for the introduction of Greater spotteds?(or do you want lessers brought over as well?)

So whilst the anti introduction school has produced a sound "If we are not sure they were here we shouldnt introduce them" argument, you have produced no factual argument whatsoever.

Why are the wider benefits not being considered?
Because youre argument is flawed. Woodpeckers ARE part of a healthy forrest eco-system. But not on THIS island.

Ireland has a different ecology to our neighbour. We are still learning about it.
We are still discovering new insect species present in Ireland, which may not exist in Britain.

Many of our bird species (Coal tit, Dipper, Jay) show sub-specific variation putting them on a path for separation from continental types.

When you are looking a introducing a species with a potentially adverse ecological effect, the onus is not on the anti introduction camp to prove they were not here.
The onus is on the Pro camp to prove, 100% conclusively, that they WERE.

Owen

 

[KnockerNorton]

Despite the previous posts, nobody has provided evidence that GSW did not exist in Ireland.

And nobody has ever proved that Leprechauns do not exist. Would you like them included on the Irish List, just on the off-chance? You can never prove a negative, so you have to deal with evidence and weigh up the probabilities, not the possibilities (it's possible that the Giant's Causeway really WAS created by giants, but is it probable based on the evidence?)

Also, why are the wider benefits not being considered? Surely woodpeckers are part of a healthy woodland ecosystem?

That is the most baseless sentence you have come up with so far. It's like saying "land mammals are surely part of a healthy ecosystem, so let's introduce some into New Zealand" or "Lions and elephants are part of a healthy ecosystem in Africa, so let's import some to Madagascar".

Can you actually define what a 'healthy woodland ecosystem' is? because there's no such thing. There is no tick list that exists, because every forest is different. It's called 'biodiversity' and 'geographical variation' and it's the kind of thing we're trying to preserve. Not create some kind of woodland theme park based on hypothetical species lists. Otherwise, every forest in the world would be the same, wouldn't it. But they're not, are they.

 

[Vogeljung]

Vogeljung,

If there was evidence of GSW breeding in Ireland then it would have been found by now.

There is no folklore mentioning them.
No confirmable documentation regarding them in recent history.
No remnant population surviving into the age of bird recording(something which is very hard to believe), despite there still being large enough tracts of old growth woodland to support Redstarts, Pied Flycatchers and Woodlarks into the early 20th century and beyond (though not in the case of woodlarks).
They are not a secretive species. There were enough reputable ornitologists around back then to find them if they were there.(they found woodlarks...a species much more difficult to ID and find).

All this IS evidence of them not being here to begin with.

Your argument is based, seemingly entirely, on the opinion of an organisation which believes that LESSER spotted woodpeckers were here??
But yet you are arguing for the introduction of Greater spotteds?(or do you want lessers brought over as well?)

So whilst the anti introduction school has produced a sound "If we are not sure they were here we shouldnt introduce them" argument, you have produced no factual argument whatsoever.

Why are the wider benefits not being considered?
Because youre argument is flawed. Woodpeckers ARE part of a healthy forrest eco-system. But not on THIS island.

Ireland has a different ecology to our neighbour. We are still learning about it.
We are still discovering new insect species present in Ireland, which may not exist in Britain.

Many of our bird species (Coal tit, Dipper, Jay) show sub-specific variation putting them on a path for separation from continental types.

When you are looking a introducing a species with a potentially adverse ecological effect, the onus is not on the anti introduction camp to prove they were not here.
The onus is on the Pro camp to prove, 100% conclusively, that they WERE.

Owen

Are we then to disregard everything written by Gordon d'Arcy in 'Ireland's Lost Birds' on the subject? Surely he would not have created a myth of the GSW.

Also note the follwoing references

BTO - Chris Mead "evidence of GSW bones from pre-Christian times in Ireland"

'Finding Birds in Ireland - The Complete Guide' - Eric Dempsey and Michael O'Clery, lists GSW as a species which "formerly bred"

'The Complete Guide to Ireland's Birds' - Eric Dempsey and Michael O'Clery - "GSW was once a resident species in Ireland"....

Are they all wrong?

Re: Folklore. This cannot be proven. Are pied flycatchers mentioned in folkore? I'm not so sure that they are. In addition, much of our older folklore will have been in the Irish language and words do exist for 'woodpecker'...and yes, these names could have been coined by the terminology committees in more recent times, but equally they may have been sourced by lexicographers from old texts (snag breac, snagaire, snagaire darach, cnagaire).

Perhaps our forebears were more interested in eating woodpeckers than observing them. They might have admired the plumage whilst plucking it to eat!

 

[Helsinki Birder]

The BTO papers point is given away in the title.
Evidence of GSW bones in Ireland...it dosent say how they got there or comment on whether they were a resident species.

In the case of the other references...they have just been citing eachother in a circle of potentially inaccurate information.

None of this argument matters you realise.
I said you have to prove 100% that they were breeding here (after the ice age).
Why?

Because you wont get a license to import, handle and release a foreign organism on Irish soil without this. The system is set up to protect the ecology and the animals themselves. It is designed to to prevent shoddy research such as you have quoted (IWT) and have people releasing Lesser spotteds (or syrian or black woodpeckers for that matter) without any serious basis in fact.

Owen

 

[Vogeljung]

The BTO papers point is given away in the title.
Evidence of GSW bones in Ireland...it dosent say how they got there or comment on whether they were a resident species.

In the case of the other references...they have just been sighting eachother in a circle of potentially inaccurate information.

None of this argument matters you realise.
I said you have to prove 100% that they were breeding here (after the ice age).
Why?

Because you wont get a license to import, handle and release a foreign organism on Irish soil without this. The system is set up to protect the ecology and the animals themselves. It is designed to to prevent shoddy research such as you have quoted (IWT) and have people releasing Lesser spotteds (or syrian or black woodpeckers for that matter) without any serious basis in fact.

Owen

So where did this information come from? They cannot have made it up. From whaht source text are they quoting?

When you say 'potentially inaccurate' isn't it equally the case that this information may actually be accurate?

 

[KnockerNorton]

exactly, where is the source evidence. Where is the reference. So far, it all seems to be inference.

I have searched for the Mead article and cannot find it. How 'pre' is pre-Christian? How can we assess the reliability of the interpretation? For instance, GSW may have colonised during a warm phase tens of thousands of years ago, but then died out naturally due to a cooler and wetter climate. How can we know what your one-line reference means?

It is very easy for 'received wisdom' to be quoted and misquoted and repeated as fact. Such as 'red kites prey on lambs' or 'swans mate for life' or 'bib size is reliable guide to separating marsh and willow tits'.

There are lion bones from medieval times in London. Does that mean lions were roaming medieval London?

Aside from all the points pariah makes, Defra are never going to allow anyone to come over here and catch GSW to release in Ireland based on current evidence.

 

[Helsinki Birder]

What does it matter where it comes from?
All that matters is what you can prove.
You cant prove they were breeding here.
No license. No release. No argument.

Owen

 

[KnockerNorton]

What does it matter where it comes from?
All that matters is what you can prove.
You cant prove they were breeding here.
No license. No release. No argument.

Owen

1. can't prove they were breeding in reasonably recent times.
2. can't say why they died out if they ever were there (natural or man-made? nobody know what the orignal forest looked like, or how and when it declined, and how that affected any wodpeckers).
3. can't prove that conditions are ideal for them now and they wouldn't die out again - i.e. that the onyl reason they're not there is man.
4. can't be sure that they wont have a negative impact on the exisitng ecosystem, seeing as they are well-known major nest predators of some species of which ireland has endemic races.

they are 4 of the key fundamental questions that need to answered before any reintroduction, which are currently unaswerable. Guesses aren't good enough. The guidelines are clear.

 

[Vogeljung]

Chris Mead link as referenced above:

http://www.birdcare.com/bin/showsonb?great+spotted+woodpecker

It looks like GSW is recolonising Ireland under its own steam anyway without the assistance of a reintroduction programme.