It is unfortunate that Dennis took this excellent review of the small Swarovskis and essentially trashed it, using extremely boorish behavior, and now expects us to 'laugh' it off as some kind of joke--Bizarre!
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My Review of a 8x32 EL; 8x30 SLC NEU and a 8x30 CL (all brand new bino's) (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter stephen b
- Start date
It is unfortunate that Dennis took this excellent review of the small Swarovskis and essentially trashed it, using extremely boorish behavior, and now expects us to 'laugh' it off as some kind of joke--Bizarre!
Alexis Powell
Natural history enthusiast
Dear Dennis,
Wow, this is perhaps the most revealing post you've ever made to Birdforum, so I want to thank you for sharing these thoughts, though I find them very disturbing. You've certainly answered my call to share your philosophy. What a tragic outlook! You are doomed to perpetual dissatisfaction. And you do not, apparently, consider yourself the god of binoculars. For your own sake, I wish you did.
Moving forward, you really ought to take another look at the Leica HD. I've no idea what Albinos says about them, and I guess for you that takes precedence over everything else (but see footnote 1 below), but since you liked the optics of the BN so much, I think you really ought to take to the HD despite your past statements to the contrary. The HD have exactly the same optical personality as the BN except with better glass and coatings, and slightly lighter weight and size. The FL are great, especially for glasses wearers, but they aren't quite as easy to pop up to the eyes and get a great view as their competitors. And the EL are nice too, and fairly light in weight (unlike Nikon, Pentax competitors) but they are not a compact binocular.
1. Actually, given your predicament (that your binocular satisfaction is determined by whatever you perceive to be the esteem afforded a model by the binocular testing and binocular-interested community), and because I don't like to see a person suffer so, if you find a bin that you think you like (provisionally, of course), I'll be happy to send you a signed certificate, with no expiration date for its validity, stating that I think it is an awesome binocular, and I can probably get some of my friends to sign it as well. If you can't believe in yourself, believe in me (as the god of binoculars), and (like all good gods) I promise to settle your doubts and insecurities.
--AP
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brocknroller
porromaniac
Well, I guess we're giving the dead horse a few more kicks, just to make sure. The medical examiner apparently was not animal certified.
It would appear that Dennis has flip flopped, and being fickle when it comes to bins, that wouldn't surprise anyone, however, reading his posts more carefully, I think he's using hyperbole to make the opposite point. Using "reverse psychology" on us.
That is, he's really saying that no matter what the experts say, he's not backing off (at least not much) from his original opinion that his CL is as good or almost as good his SV EL and is alpha level, not second tier.
The way he criticized Henry's "bench test" (which really wasn't s a bench test by Henry's own admission) suggests that as other experts weigh in with more hard data, Dennis' opinion based on his own ("personal empirical" - credit to Stephen for that oxymoron
field tests are going to remain unchanged. Fair enough. If someone thinks the CL or any other bin for that matter is the "bee's knees" (like to know the origin of that one!), and it makes him happy, who are we to question that? It's a personal choice. Last I checked in the free world that was still allowed within reason.
But here's the ironic twist. In the past, Dennis has made purchase decisions based on expert testimony. His purchase of the Zeiss 8x56 FL was based on Henry's review. Initially, he seemed to agree with Henry's assessment of the optics, and was encouraging others to buy the bin, though eventually, the weight was literally too much for him (as Henry warned in his review). Then he flipped the bins and flopped on Henry for "goading" him into buying them.
So it would not surprise me that if allbinos, binomania, etc. didn't rank the CL as high as Dennis thinks they should have, that he would end up returning the CL or selling it, because despite his hyperbole, he is very much influenced by expert opinion.
So let me repeat what I said in my previous post. No matter what public opinion or experts say about the CL, if Dennis or anyone else who owns the CL thinks they are alpha level or a great compliment to their big alpha, or an affordable way to enter the "Swarovski family of optics," so be it!
Same goes for the other camps. If Stephen thinks the CL is a "second tier" bin, so be it. If someone thinks it's a total disappointment, that's his opinion.
As General Patton once said: If everybody's thinking the same thing, then nobody's thinking.
In the long run, the experts are going to return the CLs to Swarovski or the dealer that loaned it to them, but you, the buyer, are going to have to live with the CLs. So your opinion is what counts the most. Just don't try to shove that opinion down our throats, and we'll all play nice together in the sandbox.
Brock
Kammerdiner
Well-known member
Dennis, you should take a binocular breather and live with the CL's for a while.
As a diversion, might I suggest buying a 2012 BMW 640i, followed by a year's subscription to Autoweek. There will lots of good comparison tests involving the Bimmer in months to come. Who knows, you might wind up with a Bugatti Veyron!
http://www.bugatti.com/en/veyron-16.4.html
Ya gotta admit it's more exciting than a pair of binoculars!
Mark
I've been ignoring your posts for along time Jonathan. It really doesn't hurt my feelings if you ignore mine.
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Funny. Good tip on the Leica HD. Might try one.
I didn't trash anything. I just disagreed. This is the USA you are allowed to do that. Your comment is pretty boring actually and your really not saying anything meaningful other than to criticize me.
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I just decided my pump and dump strategy wasn't going to work with so many negative reviews of the CL coming in. I figured I might as well join the crowd and admit they are "second tier." I'll cut my losses before a negative Albino review comes in and dump them on E-bay. No hard feelings.
I just sold my Kawasaki ZX14 because I tend to go pretty fast which seems to attract the attention of the local law enforcement. Since my driving record is not stellar I don't think a Veyron would be the best auto choice for me. Isn't it's 0 to 60 time 2.5 seconds? I would tend to test that at ever stoplight. Not good.
brownpelican1
Well-known member
Well I'll be darned! Dennis really is selling the Cl's! http://www.ebay.com/itm/Swarovski-8...330606454892?pt=Binocular&hash=item4cf9ae286c
This is fascinating stuff. Maybe a book and a movie. You just can't make this stuff up!
You know me only first tier stuff. No second tier.
I have never lied on Bird Forum. I have told some stretchers but that's it.
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I have been thinking about this "Tier" business. All of the binoculars that I reviewed here on this thread are not even what Swarovski has set as their "1st tier".
As I stated in my original review post here: "This is not the highest level of binocular that Swarovski makes. That category is reserved for the recently released, just this year- the Swarovision and the SLC HD. But these are the best that Swarovski offers in 30 and 32 mm at this time."
And has I mentioned in my summary to that review- I do not think Swarovski ever intended for the CL to be in that upper tier of theirs. They obviously did not put their top HD glass; nor did they price them with their upper tier counterparts. - copy of that part of the review:
"So where does this leave the CL?- To me, exactly where Swarovski had targeted and planned for them to be. A lightweight sub-midsized, lower tier (for them) bino compared to their HD's and The SV. These allow someone to get into the Swaro line at a lower tier/ price point than their other ever increasing higher priced top tier ones. These will compete with other mid level binos and will give someone the ability to have a Swaro bino without spending close to 2K."
Up until the last year and a half the EL's and the SLC's were the upper tier of the Swaro line up. Although in price even those 2 lines were separated. Now that the SV's and the SLC HD's have been released- most all of the EL's and the SLC's either do not exist in their manufacturing line up- or are on their way out. Only the 8x32 EL/ Traveler seems to have, at least for now, hung on as the last of the EL and SLC line to still be made and not replaced by a HD/SV counterpart. Only time will tell whether they make that move with a 32mm or even a 30mm bin.
As far as the 8x32 EL goes, I never really thought that even now it could be considered a 2nd tier binocular. As far as a 32mm mid-sized glass; it is still an Alpha manufacturer made binocular that competes right now with the very top of that class. It competes in price and reviews with the likes of the 8x32 Zeiss FL; Leica Ultravid HD, and you can even put as far as price and performance goes the Nikon EDG. In fact in the Porter's mid-sized bino review- those (4) binoculars (EL,FL,Ult.HD, EDG) were listed as being their top 4. Even if you disagreed with the order of finish, or their review findings, I think all would agree that those (4) bino's from those (4) makers are right now the cream of the crop in the 32mm class as far as performance and price.
** now, as far as I am concerned, if we are talking about alpha level optical performance, I would have to put the Porro from Nikon ( the 8x32 SE ) right in that discussion. But if we are talking "tiers"- even Nikon puts them in a lower tier as far as price; and there is debate whether the SE is still or will continue being manufactured.
So the CL to me was never planned/targeted by Swaro to be their in top tier. And the 8x30 SLC has not been considered by them for a long time to be at the top of their line up as far as price goes. I have always considered the 30mm SLC's from Swarovski to be great binoculars, even though I still felt that optically they still were a small step down from the 8x32 EL.
I really like and admire fine optical -quality glass and performance. But,..... for myself and my binocular use - I have never been concerned with this "tier" business, or the most expensive price class warfare, if you will. I always bought and used binoculars that were the "best" for my intended use and my budget (or what I have set my allocated budget to be).
I do remember when I was first just out of graduate school in the mid 80's and was on an Elk hunt with some relatives of mine and I first saw and laid my hands on a Swarovski binocular- it was a 8x30 SLC that was around the neck of an Uncle of one of my Brother in laws. We all had a variety of binoculars that we were using then, and most of them were either old porro's- and most not too expensive. I think I was using a inexpensive non H2O proof 7x32 B&L porro. The roofs that any of the hunting partners had at the time were not really great except my Brother in laws father had a real nice B&L roof and also had a smaller Leupold GR roof. The Swarovski to me just looked "cool" with that green color of the armor and the "Eagle"- I have to say as a very broke 26 year old, I was impressed. Truth be told the view through the quality B&L roof that my Brother in laws Dad had was just as good; but I was just enamored with that Swaro SLC. I had one of those moments that I think we all have had about something when we were younger and could not afford something at the time- "Some day I am going to have one of those......." - fill in the blank. But it was about 8-10 years before I could either afford that class, or had the gumption to buy one- it was a 7x30 SLC.
Since then I have used either a 7x30 SLC; a Pentax DCF ED or a couple other Porro binoculars for most all of my bino needs. I have bought other binoculars since then and even a couple Alpha quality and priced binoculars since then. But, I have not kept most of the Alphas- because they were not really not that much better than ones I already had ( truth be told, I got cold feet and buyers remorse or a reality check) so I sold them. Most of those were either 2nd owner new, or were priced in such a way when I bought them- I did not take any hit by selling them.
Now with this binocular "tier" business it is a big price point difference. There is either the sub $1000 market in the 2nd tier and then it jumps to almost twice that for the upper Alpha tier. It would be like if the housing market only had $200-250K house and then it jumped to $400-450K with nothing in between. So for me and my use- I do not want to pay almost $1000 or more above the price of what I have already to get to me only a little more optical improvement. Really for me it is a "price tier"; and I am just not willing, even when I can afford it, to spend 2K or more for binoculars that are optically only a small bit better than what I have.
### Not that anyone probably cares- but this is my hunting/ nature viewing bino- lineup- (they work for and fulfill my needs at this time):
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h256/sdbdc/P1020008.jpg
*** (6x30 Leupold Yosemite; 7x30 Swaro SLC; 8x32 Pentax DCF ED; 8x42 Leupold Cascade porro- all H2O proof- which is important for where I live, and what I mainly use them for)
I know I have gotten way off the post topic with the last comments- but to close and bring it back slightly to topic- I think that is exactly what Swarovski was thinking with the intro of these CL's. That being- since shortly all of their bino's were going to be around 2k or more- they did not want to price almost all of the market out of their whole line up. And it was I think a very smart move by them. Right now it seems that Leica is the only Alpha line that is not concerned about having a lower tier so to speak. For right now they just keep going forward with improving their existing line.
As I stated in my original review post here: "This is not the highest level of binocular that Swarovski makes. That category is reserved for the recently released, just this year- the Swarovision and the SLC HD. But these are the best that Swarovski offers in 30 and 32 mm at this time."
And has I mentioned in my summary to that review- I do not think Swarovski ever intended for the CL to be in that upper tier of theirs. They obviously did not put their top HD glass; nor did they price them with their upper tier counterparts. - copy of that part of the review:
"So where does this leave the CL?- To me, exactly where Swarovski had targeted and planned for them to be. A lightweight sub-midsized, lower tier (for them) bino compared to their HD's and The SV. These allow someone to get into the Swaro line at a lower tier/ price point than their other ever increasing higher priced top tier ones. These will compete with other mid level binos and will give someone the ability to have a Swaro bino without spending close to 2K."
Up until the last year and a half the EL's and the SLC's were the upper tier of the Swaro line up. Although in price even those 2 lines were separated. Now that the SV's and the SLC HD's have been released- most all of the EL's and the SLC's either do not exist in their manufacturing line up- or are on their way out. Only the 8x32 EL/ Traveler seems to have, at least for now, hung on as the last of the EL and SLC line to still be made and not replaced by a HD/SV counterpart. Only time will tell whether they make that move with a 32mm or even a 30mm bin.
As far as the 8x32 EL goes, I never really thought that even now it could be considered a 2nd tier binocular. As far as a 32mm mid-sized glass; it is still an Alpha manufacturer made binocular that competes right now with the very top of that class. It competes in price and reviews with the likes of the 8x32 Zeiss FL; Leica Ultravid HD, and you can even put as far as price and performance goes the Nikon EDG. In fact in the Porter's mid-sized bino review- those (4) binoculars (EL,FL,Ult.HD, EDG) were listed as being their top 4. Even if you disagreed with the order of finish, or their review findings, I think all would agree that those (4) bino's from those (4) makers are right now the cream of the crop in the 32mm class as far as performance and price.
** now, as far as I am concerned, if we are talking about alpha level optical performance, I would have to put the Porro from Nikon ( the 8x32 SE ) right in that discussion. But if we are talking "tiers"- even Nikon puts them in a lower tier as far as price; and there is debate whether the SE is still or will continue being manufactured.
So the CL to me was never planned/targeted by Swaro to be their in top tier. And the 8x30 SLC has not been considered by them for a long time to be at the top of their line up as far as price goes. I have always considered the 30mm SLC's from Swarovski to be great binoculars, even though I still felt that optically they still were a small step down from the 8x32 EL.
I really like and admire fine optical -quality glass and performance. But,..... for myself and my binocular use - I have never been concerned with this "tier" business, or the most expensive price class warfare, if you will. I always bought and used binoculars that were the "best" for my intended use and my budget (or what I have set my allocated budget to be).
I do remember when I was first just out of graduate school in the mid 80's and was on an Elk hunt with some relatives of mine and I first saw and laid my hands on a Swarovski binocular- it was a 8x30 SLC that was around the neck of an Uncle of one of my Brother in laws. We all had a variety of binoculars that we were using then, and most of them were either old porro's- and most not too expensive. I think I was using a inexpensive non H2O proof 7x32 B&L porro. The roofs that any of the hunting partners had at the time were not really great except my Brother in laws father had a real nice B&L roof and also had a smaller Leupold GR roof. The Swarovski to me just looked "cool" with that green color of the armor and the "Eagle"- I have to say as a very broke 26 year old, I was impressed. Truth be told the view through the quality B&L roof that my Brother in laws Dad had was just as good; but I was just enamored with that Swaro SLC. I had one of those moments that I think we all have had about something when we were younger and could not afford something at the time- "Some day I am going to have one of those......." - fill in the blank. But it was about 8-10 years before I could either afford that class, or had the gumption to buy one- it was a 7x30 SLC.
Since then I have used either a 7x30 SLC; a Pentax DCF ED or a couple other Porro binoculars for most all of my bino needs. I have bought other binoculars since then and even a couple Alpha quality and priced binoculars since then. But, I have not kept most of the Alphas- because they were not really not that much better than ones I already had ( truth be told, I got cold feet and buyers remorse or a reality check) so I sold them. Most of those were either 2nd owner new, or were priced in such a way when I bought them- I did not take any hit by selling them.
Now with this binocular "tier" business it is a big price point difference. There is either the sub $1000 market in the 2nd tier and then it jumps to almost twice that for the upper Alpha tier. It would be like if the housing market only had $200-250K house and then it jumped to $400-450K with nothing in between. So for me and my use- I do not want to pay almost $1000 or more above the price of what I have already to get to me only a little more optical improvement. Really for me it is a "price tier"; and I am just not willing, even when I can afford it, to spend 2K or more for binoculars that are optically only a small bit better than what I have.
### Not that anyone probably cares- but this is my hunting/ nature viewing bino- lineup- (they work for and fulfill my needs at this time):
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h256/sdbdc/P1020008.jpg
*** (6x30 Leupold Yosemite; 7x30 Swaro SLC; 8x32 Pentax DCF ED; 8x42 Leupold Cascade porro- all H2O proof- which is important for where I live, and what I mainly use them for)
I know I have gotten way off the post topic with the last comments- but to close and bring it back slightly to topic- I think that is exactly what Swarovski was thinking with the intro of these CL's. That being- since shortly all of their bino's were going to be around 2k or more- they did not want to price almost all of the market out of their whole line up. And it was I think a very smart move by them. Right now it seems that Leica is the only Alpha line that is not concerned about having a lower tier so to speak. For right now they just keep going forward with improving their existing line.
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FrankD
Well-known member
I miss my Leupold Cascade porros. :-(
Apparently they are still around but they are priced right at where they were when they were first introduced. If one of those retailers puts them on clearance then count me in on being one of the first to buy another.
For now I will settle for the little SE.
Apparently they are still around but they are priced right at where they were when they were first introduced. If one of those retailers puts them on clearance then count me in on being one of the first to buy another.
For now I will settle for the little SE.
brocknroller
porromaniac
Or maybe a song parody....
The Way We (Almost) Were
Mmm. Mmm.
Memories, in the prism facets of my mind
Low chromatic aberration memories of the way we (almost) were
Scattered hyperboles of my mini-EL didn't work out fine
"Stretches" I kept on repeating about the way we (almost) were
Can it be that it was all so simple then
or have a few bad reviews forced me to rewrite every line?
If we had the chance to do it all again for $849,
tell me would we? Could we?
Memories, may be beautiful and yet,
what's too painful to remember,
we simply choose to forget
So it’s the good reviews I will remember,
whenever I remember
the way we (almost) were.
*****************************************************
NDhunter
Experienced observer
Dennis:
It seems you are hard to please. I am surprised you are so swayed by
the breeze. You said you like the CL, and I have not seen any negative
reviews, only reviews to place the binocular in the mid-range class.
There is nothing wrong with that.
I have a recommendation, you trust the Allbinos reviews, so you should
try the Nikon EDG, the 10x42 is rated #1 .
Jerry
Dennis:
It seems you are hard to please. I am surprised you are so swayed by
the breeze. You said you like the CL, and I have not seen any negative
reviews, only reviews to place the binocular in the mid-range class.
There is nothing wrong with that.
I have a recommendation, you trust the Allbinos reviews, so you should
try the Nikon EDG, the 10x42 is rated #1 .
Jerry
No, I want something more compact to complement my SV so I went back to my old favorite the Zeiss 8x32 FL. I like the SV better than the EDG and a few tenths of a point won't sway me towards the EDG. Besides the EDG is 10x which I don't like and they haven't compared the 8x. The Leica 8x32 HD had too many blackouts for my eyes and the Swarovski 8x32 EL has too much CA although I really like it's optics. The EL is a little big also. I am reinventing myself and since my threads are so controversial and cause such heated debate from here on out I want to be known as the "Howard Stern of Bird Forum". From here on out I am the "Shock Jock" of Bird Forum.
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If you look through my feedback on E-bay you can see remnants of my binocular graveyard. I really have had all those binoculars I am talking about!
FrankD
Well-known member
mooreorless
Well-known member
Dennis you can only go back 90 days, so we can not see anything but jewelry. No binoculars listed.
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