Let's talk PORROS! (1 Viewer)

[CharleyBird]

The new Leica Ultravid are a very attractive and elegant binocular, and they are usually smaller and more compact than the competition. I understand the attraction. I like the looks of them also but the view for me never matched the Swarovski EL or Zeiss SF. I will take a big heavy 50 mm porro over the Ultravid any day of the week though optically.

I wasn't recommending any 12x50, certainly not the Ultravid with it's average ER, IPD...
And Mr Vine was being very careful in his review.
Why do you think he is "tempted to own a pair for reasons not entirely explicable" ?


But if you like big heavy 50mm binoculars then surely the best optically on the market are the two Nikon WX?

 

[kevin-h74]

I think there might be room in the market for a retro-looking but yet modernized porro - latest glass, good eyecups, good eye relief, retro styling with leatherette, passably waterproof more or less. Like an EII with better eye relief and eye cups. From a marketing perspective it would be a porro version of a retrovid type product. I think the key is to make it a semi-luxury retro product but have it still be a highly functional, excellent binocular. And preferably small - EII sized probably. I think Nikon could well do this, but I doubt they will. And I doubt that Swarovski, Zeiss, or Leica would develop such a new product for what would be modest sales. It's a nice idea to ponder, however.

You have just described the Nikon SE range.
Nikon should start producing them again, they would fly out the stores.

 

[Jessie-66]

Jessie-66, as people have commented before in the forum Nikon EII 8x30 and 10x35 make a nice set, and the latter also has a relatively wide field of view at 7 degrees. Unlike the SE 10x42, which looks as if bigger barrels have been stuck onto the SE 8x32, its form is more homogeneous, so I think the EII 10x35 has its own personality. There is more to hold on to than with the 8x and, being a porro it handles well anyway, with the result that its unusually good steadiness allows the higher magnification to really count. Each of them is a beauty in its own way but I generally prefer the 10x35 for that reason, and maybe you should get both...

Thanks Chris. Can you tell which of the Nikon E II (8x30 vs 10x35) sways less when carried in front of the chest? The side brackets (eyelets) for the strap are not supposed to be positioned that conveniently. Is the 10x35 in this relation better because longer tubes? Jessie

 

[mwhogue]

Jessie,

Pending input from Chris: For me using an EDG strap on both models 8 and 10x EII, the 10 hangs noticeably straighter and has less sway. I often us a Binoshield with either to eliminate sway and take some weight off the neck. The EDG strap can't be adjusted quite short enough for my personal preference and is not contoured so a different strap may help with sway as well.

Mike

 

[Jessie-66]

Mike, thanks. Good to know. Thats a plus for 10x35 EII. I use a contoured strap from manufacturer Niggeloh. Jessie

Niggeloh Fernglas-Gurt - ALP JAGD - Der Jagdausrüster

Niggeloh Fernglas-Gurt - Hoher Tragekomfort durch breites, weiches Neoprenteil. Rutschsicherung und beste Haftung auf der Schulter durch genarbte, gummiartige Unterseite. Geräuschlos .....

www.alp-jagd.at

 

[henry link]

Hi Henry (post #192),

Thanks for the diagram of the 7x50 FMT, and the additional information

As you indicate, it would seem that two eyepieces are used on the larger FMT models:
a) a narrower FOV/ simpler construction on the 7x50 and the 10x70, and;
b) a wider FOV/ more complex one on the 10x50 and 16x70

Does the 8x30 FMTR with its intermediate FOV, have the same number of eyepiece reflections and cementings as the 16x70?

- - - -

And based on the specifications, the 7x50 MT and 10x70 MT would seem to share the much simpler 3 element eyepiece
shown in the first image in post #180


John

I just closely examined the reflections returning from the eyepiece end of my 8x30. With the eyepiece attached to the binocular it's harder to interpret which reflections belong to the eyepiece and which come from the prisms, but I think I have it sorted out now. I count the same 8 reflections and one cementing as the 7x50 eyepiece, so I think the 8x30 probably uses the 7x50 eyepiece design scaled down to a shorter focal length.

The 1985 test results I posted were for a 7x50 MT-SX, a binocular with only ten glass to air surfaces. Fujinon implied in their marketing that the FMT-SX models had the same transmission, but of course that couldn't have been quite right. Back in the mid 80s I owned the a 10x70 and a 14x70 MT-SX (5 element Erfle). Compared to the competition around at the time those came across as phenomenally bright binoculars.

BTW, a Fujinon dealer in Los Angelos told me at the time that the 1985 test was conducted for the US Government by JPL. I pass that along with no endorsement of its veracity.

Henry

 

[Gijs van Ginkel]

Jessie-66, post 245,
Kite binoculars are sold under the name Ddoptics in Germany, so you do not have to travel abroad to judge them.
Gijs van Ginkel

 

[Jessie-66]

Gijs, DDoptics offers only the older Kite Lynx variety under its own name. This is fine (already tested briefly, especially what it has to do with the stray light criticized in forums) but the eyecups are too easily accidentally adjusted. The new Kite Lynx HD+ have twist up eyecups. Therefore, I will test the Kite original (new Lynx HD+) - or DDoptics finally makes an update. When the time comes, I can call the company in city Chemnitz. We have to be careful not to get stoned in a "Alpha" porro thread. I knew the usage only from the Greek alphabet, from mathematics, from behavioral scientists concerning humans and animals. Otherwise, I know only high end products. ;-) Jessie

 

[[email protected]]

I wasn't recommending any 12x50, certainly not the Ultravid with it's average ER, IPD...
And Mr Vine was being very careful in his review.
Why do you think he is "tempted to own a pair for reasons not entirely explicable" ?


"But if you like big heavy 50mm binoculars then surely the best optically on the market are the two Nikon WX?"

Big heavy PORRO prism binoculars not roofs like the WX. Notice how close in ranking the Fujinon FMTR-SX 10x50 is to the Nikon WX 10x50 and the Fujinon is $800 and the Nikon WX 10x50 is $6000 and then the $2800 Swarovski EL 10x50 is ranked BELOW it! Just a good example of how much better value a porro is.

Binoculars rankings - 10x50 - AllBinos.com

The best binocular tests on the net. The comprehensive database of binoculars with their parameters and users opinions. Interesting articles and comparisons.

www.allbinos.com

 

[[email protected]]

Jessie-66, as people have commented before in the forum Nikon EII 8x30 and 10x35 make a nice set, and the latter also has a relatively wide field of view at 7 degrees. Unlike the SE 10x42, which looks as if bigger barrels have been stuck onto the SE 8x32, its form is more homogeneous, so I think the EII 10x35 has its own personality. There is more to hold on to than with the 8x and, being a porro it handles well anyway, with the result that its unusually good steadiness allows the higher magnification to really count. Each of them is a beauty in its own way but I generally prefer the 10x35 for that reason, and maybe you should get both...

The Nikon EII 8x30 and the 10x35 impressive for their big FOV, but they lack contrast, and they appear dark to me because of their red bias compared to the Habicht which is brighter and more color neutral. I do agree with Tobias on the EIIs. I find the Nikon EII 10x35 to worse than the EII 8x30. The EII 10x35 just never impressed me.

 

[[email protected]]

Dennis,

As I said, nothing about the number of glass to air surfaces in any modern roof prism binocular has anything to do with the use of roof prisms. If the prisms are uncemented they all have 4 surfaces, just like uncemented Porro prisms.

If you want to compare the 10x50 FMT to its approximate contemporary, the Zeiss 8/10x56 FL or the current 8/10x54 HT, the current 8/10x42mm SFs or any of the the Swaro SLCs you'll find the count of glass to air surfaces is the same, 16, with the same 4 coming from the the prisms whether they are Porro, AK and SP. The Swaro ELs and NLs have more total surfaces, but the same 4 come from their SP prisms.

Your recent infatuation with Porros is leading you to attribute every good thing to that prism type and to downplay the disadvantages of your current favorite. In a few months after the Fujis are dumped we'll hear all about the unacceptable weight, the clumsiness of the IF, the 9 meter close focus, etc.

BTW, I have nothing against Porros. I have about 40 pairs and only 5 roof prism binoculars.

40 PAIRS OF PORROS! You are a porromaniac and you never admitted it! Could you list what roof prisms and porros you own? I am very curious what you have.

 

[[email protected]]

You have just described the Nikon SE range.
Nikon should start producing them again, they would fly out the stores.

I always thought the Habicht was better and brighter than the SE, and they are waterproof.

 

[henry link]

40 PAIRS OF PORROS! You are a porromaniac and you never admitted it! Could you list what roof prisms and porros you own? I am very curious what you have.

That would be a chore, both to write down and to read. Besides my little collection is small potatoes compared to several real collectors here, who have hundreds.

I'll just mention two that have come up on this thread. I no longer have a Fujinon 7x50 FMT-SX because I found I preferred the Nikon Prostar 7x50 and I never bought the 10x50 FMT-SX because I already had a Pentax 10x50 PIF, which I consider to be the functional equivalent. Both the Nikon and the Pentax mostly sit on a shelf because I really don't have much use for a 7x50 or a 10x50 IF binocular, something you will likely be discovering soon.

 

[[email protected]]

That would be a chore, both to write down and to read. Besides my little collection is small potatoes compared to several real collectors here, who have hundreds.

I'll just mention two that have come up on this thread. I no longer have a Fujinon 7x50 FMT-SX because I found I preferred the Nikon Prostar 7x50 and I never bought the 10x50 FMT-SX because I already had a Pentax 10x50 PIF, which I consider to be the functional equivalent. Both the Nikon and the Pentax mostly sit on a shelf because I really don't have much use for a 7x50 or a 10x50 IF binocular, something you will likely be discovering soon.

I use my Fujinon FMTR-SX 10x50 and 7x50 quite a bit even birding with them, but I guess we are all different. I find at the distances I use them at I don't even have to focus much especially the 7x50 because of the DOF. If a bird is 15 feet away I don't even use the binoculars I just use my eyes. I don't need to examine them at 1.5 feet away, and I don't look at bugs. Why do you prefer the Prostars over the Fujinons? I think the contrary because you have such a depth of knowledge of optics everybody would be VERY interested in seeing what you own. It would really be cool if would put a star rating say from 1 star for the worst to 5 stars for your favorites. At least make a list of your Top Ten favorites. Thanks!

 

[Gijs van Ginkel]

The Fujinon 10x50 FMTR-SX , weight 1470 gr, we have investigated in 2013 had a close focus of 15 meter, Individual Eyepiece focussing and eyerelief of 20 mm and foldable rubber eyecups. It suffered from color diffraction and was not terrible expensive (almost 1000 euros).
Gijs van Ginkel

 

[[email protected]]

The Fujinon 10x50 FMTR-SX , weight 1470 gr, we have investigated in 2013 had a close focus of 15 meter, Individual Eyepiece focussing and eyerelief of 20 mm and foldable rubber eyecups. It suffered from color diffraction and was not terrible expensive (almost 1000 euros).
Gijs van Ginkel

Really! I find the CA control quite good on my Fujinon FMTR-SX just purchased this year. Fujinon has said they updated their coatings since you did that test years ago so maybe that is the difference. You should investigate a newer model Fujinon FMTR-SX 10x50 to see if your findings are any different especially that low 82% transmission. Thanks, Gijs.

 

[henry link]

Gijs, your close focus of 15 meters is a good match for the 50 feet that EdZ at Cloudynights reported and about 6 meters longer than the Fujinon spec. Dennis, what do you measure for close focus and where did you see claims of coatings updates since 2003?

 

[dries1]

The Prostar 7X50 is a nice glass under a dark sky, and if connected to a parallelogram, can be quite an experience when viewing the milky way. Other than that, that is why they sit on a shelf. They are IMO a better glass than the Fujinon 7X50. (I still have a M22 Fujinon) I need to sell that one. I much prefer the NVA DF 7X40.
A nice 10X50 IF porro has it value/worth such as the Fujinon, however face it, it is a limited usage glass like the WX. For astro there are many many other choices including ones with more magnification. If I am going out in the day and I just take a 10X50 it will be a roof with CF, which also work as well or better to my eyes, even under dark skies.
The last time I saw a Fujinon 10X50 on land being used was in an air traffic tower and one on the SW border on a tripod. Good choices for stationary quick views.
They are a limited usage glass, lets not kid oneself.

Andy W.

 

[Sebzwo]

I have a Docter Nobilem 10x50 that I personally like very much and I think it's very versatile. It's bright, perfect for observations over long distances has a wide field of view and even performs at night or in lower light conditions. Admittedly it's not lightweight but it can be carried around and is definitely hand holdable and stable.
Apologies, no lab data or anything to prove anything just my experience.

 

[[email protected]]

I have a Docter Nobilem 10x50 that I personally like very much and I think it's very versatile. It's bright, perfect for observations over long distances has a wide field of view and even performs at night or in lower light conditions. Admittedly it's not lightweight, but it can be carried around and is definitely hand holdable and stable.
Apologies, no lab data or anything to prove anything just my experience.

I have heard that the big Docter Nobilem 10x50 mm is a good porro. It is on my bucket list to try before I croak.