Rolling Ball: what do I do?! (1 Viewer)

emmalibertine · Dec 8, 2012

Hi everyone,

Sorry if I am repeating here (as this reply is on the 'high end binocular advice needed' thread in the general bin forum).

I have just bought a pair of the SVs 8x32 - my choice was between the Zeiss Victory FL T 8x32 and the Swarovisions.

The Zeiss were great, but the SVs were just amazing.... enough that I got them. Whereas the Zeiss were like a very good pair of bins, the SVs were like a completely different animal. They are so sharp. The detail and colour is so clear and birds just looks stunning. It is a pleasure to look through them and I am looking at birds in a new way. They also feel like an extension of my eyes and the ergonomics are perfect for me.

I do have a big problem though. I think I am seeing 'rolling ball', or whatever kind of effect this is. Basically, it is like the middle of the view is popping out towards me - like the view is convex towards me. I didn't notice it looking out into the marsh, but as soon as I stepped outside to bird in an enclosed area of trees, I was very surprised at what I was seeing and it really bothered me. The effect is extreme if I look, for example, at a bird on a bird table and then pan down to one feeding on the ground.

I would like to ask those who have experienced this:-C: does it go away? Do you get used to it? Were you bothered by it at first, but not now? If I really think about just the bird and nothing else, then I can ignore it somewhat, but it still surprises me now and again.

The dilemma is: I really really do think, for me, that the difference between what I see through the Zeiss and what I see through the SVs (and the wow I get when I even look at pigeons!) is worth the extra cost. But, I am distraught by this disortion I am seeing. If I get the Zeiss, I will forever be thinking of the better SVs (for me). But I am concerned about this distortion

Any comments very welcome!!

The frustration!!!!

Emma

Mapleton · Dec 8, 2012

I might get flamed....but maybe try the new Zeiss HT? They are replacing the FL and are supposed to be on par with the SV without the rolling ball effect.

OsageArcher · Dec 8, 2012

I see it only to a small degree in my 10x32 EL SVs. For me it is minimal and I guess I've gotten used to it but it was never much of an issue. Apparently some people see and react to it more than others, and it seems to be most noticeable when panning. I think it is so highly individual, it may be best to keep them for a while and see if it gets better or not for you, and if not, return them or sell them.

emmalibertine · Dec 8, 2012

Mapleton said:
I might get flamed....but maybe try the new Zeiss HT? They are replacing the FL and are supposed to be on par with the SV without the rolling ball effect.

Brilliant suggestion; however I am afraid that it has to be 8x32 for me because the 42s are just too heavy and big.

Dammit I am so annoyed

Simon Wates · Dec 8, 2012

I also see the rolling ball in the Swaro 8x32's - both models. I thought they were my "target binocular" (a bit of a pipe dream for me at the mo) but after seeing the rolling ball effect on a few different pieces I would have serious 2nd thoughts.

I get motion sickness easily and these bins make me feel a bit queezy - don't know if I could get used to that. Maybe folks who get motion sickness are more susceptible?

For now I'm sticking to my dependable Leica 8x32 BN's

kabsetz · Dec 8, 2012

Use the SV for a while and see what happens. Many, maybe most, get used to the distortion peculiarities of the binocular they use, and switching to a new one feels odd at first but then your brain adjusts. But some people don't get comfortable with certain kinds of views, and the SV clearly is more demanding in this than many.

I don't own SV's, but have reviewed four pairs and used them for a total of about two weeks. It took me a few days to not be bothered by RB, but in the end I hardly noticed it and just enjoyed the excellent view.

So, definitely, give them and yourself more than just one or two days of time.

Kimmo

brocknroller · Dec 8, 2012

Emma,

Being a "rolling baller," I never adjusted to the effect even after a month of daily use, and it was just as you described, but with the full sized Nikon HGL, not the SV ELs. However, the good news, as Kimmo indicated above, is this is the exception to the rule and the chances are good that you will adjust to the RB over time.

How much time? So far the longest period of adjustment posted on BF was two weeks. So if you don't adjust to it with daily use in two weeks, you probably are non-neural plastic (NNP), meaning that you're "hardheaded" like me and your brain refuses to rewire itself to a barrel shaped world view and insists on seeing reality as it is. So much for "soft headed dreamer".

How long do you have before you can't return the bins? I always recommend that birders who buy bins with low distortion look for a store with a generous return period so they aren't stuck selling the bins if they fail to adjust. If they don't have at least a two-week return period, call them and explain the situation. Every dealer should know by now the possibility of buyers experiencing "rolling ball". Be nice if Swaro shared that info with its buyers too.

The RB issue is not "black and white". Most people adjust to the RB completely, but some only partially - semi-neural plastics (SNP). Some of those SNPs can live with the moderate RB that still remains and others cannot.

Another word of advice is to cease using your other bins during this adjustment period. Switching back and forth from pincushion to low distortion might delay the "rewiring" process. Just use the SV ELs until you (hopefully) adjust.

If you don't adjust, and don't want to go with the 8x32 FL (the view is "2-D" compared to the EL, which gives a greater perception of depth), the Nikon 8x32 EDG is probably the closest to the 8x32 SV EL's view you're going to get at that price point in terms of image "sharpness" and edge performance. Some users have reported RB with the EDG, but most have not.

Let us know what happens. Good Luck!

Brock

Mac308 · Dec 9, 2012

I've seen "rolling ball" in every SV I've picked up, and that before I'd ever heard of the effect. It is VERY unsettling to me and enough that I won't consider a Swaro bin. Pity.

Personally I think Leica HD's are the high water mark of 8x32's, and yes I've had the Ziess 8x32 FL.

james holdsworth · Dec 9, 2012

brocknroller said:
Emma,

Being a "rolling baller," I never adjusted to the effect even after a month of daily use, and it was just as you described, but with the full sized Nikon HGL, not the SV ELs. However, the good news, as Kimmo indicated above, is this is the exception to the rule and the chances are good that you will adjust to the RB over time.

How much time? So far the longest period of adjustment posted on BF was two weeks. So if you don't adjust to it with daily use in two weeks, you probably are non-neural plastic (NNP), meaning that you're "hardheaded" like me and your brain refuses to rewire itself to a barrel shaped world view and insists on seeing reality as it is. So much for "soft headed dreamer".

How long do you have before you can't return the bins? I always recommend that birders who buy bins with low distortion look for a store with a generous return period so they aren't stuck selling the bins if they fail to adjust. If they don't have at least a two-week return period, call them and explain the situation. Every dealer should know by now the possibility of buyers experiencing "rolling ball". Be nice if Swaro shared that info with its buyers too.

The RB issue is not "black and white". Most people adjust to the RB completely, but some only partially - semi-neural plastics (SNP). Some of those SNPs can live with the moderate RB that still remains and others cannot.

Another word of advice is to cease using your other bins during this adjustment period. Switching back and forth from pincushion to low distortion might delay the "rewiring" process. Just use the SV ELs until you (hopefully) adjust.

If you don't adjust, and don't want to go with the 8x32 FL (the view is "2-D" compared to the EL, which gives a greater perception of depth), the Nikon 8x32 EDG is probably the closest to the 8x32 SV EL's view you're going to get at that price point in terms of image "sharpness" and edge performance. Some users have reported RB with the EDG, but most have not.

Let us know what happens. Good Luck!

Brock

So, you have tried the FL finally?

denco@comcast.n · Dec 10, 2012

emmalibertine said:
Hi everyone,

Sorry if I am repeating here (as this reply is on the 'high end binocular advice needed' thread in the general bin forum).

I have just bought a pair of the SVs 8x32 - my choice was between the Zeiss Victory FL T 8x32 and the Swarovisions.

The Zeiss were great, but the SVs were just amazing.... enough that I got them. Whereas the Zeiss were like a very good pair of bins, the SVs were like a completely different animal. They are so sharp. The detail and colour is so clear and birds just looks stunning. It is a pleasure to look through them and I am looking at birds in a new way. They also feel like an extension of my eyes and the ergonomics are perfect for me.

I do have a big problem though. I think I am seeing 'rolling ball', or whatever kind of effect this is. Basically, it is like the middle of the view is popping out towards me - like the view is convex towards me. I didn't notice it looking out into the marsh, but as soon as I stepped outside to bird in an enclosed area of trees, I was very surprised at what I was seeing and it really bothered me. The effect is extreme if I look, for example, at a bird on a bird table and then pan down to one feeding on the ground.

I would like to ask those who have experienced this:-C: does it go away? Do you get used to it? Were you bothered by it at first, but not now? If I really think about just the bird and nothing else, then I can ignore it somewhat, but it still surprises me now and again.

The dilemma is: I really really do think, for me, that the difference between what I see through the Zeiss and what I see through the SVs (and the wow I get when I even look at pigeons!) is worth the extra cost. But, I am distraught by this disortion I am seeing. If I get the Zeiss, I will forever be thinking of the better SVs (for me). But I am concerned about this distortion

Any comments very welcome!!

The frustration!!!!

Emma

I observed it in my Swarovski 8.5 x42 Swarovision's. I call it the "Circus Mirror" effect. I think it does bother you more if you are sensitive to motion sickness. The best thing you can do is like Brock said return them and get the Nikon 8x32 EDG if you have to have a waterproof roof. They will not show rolling ball because I had them for about a year. They are better optically than the Zeiss FL especially at the edge. Better yet if you don't need waterproof get the Nikon 8x32 SE or the Nikon 8x30 EII. Either one is better optically than either of the roofs. The SE will give you a similar view to the Swarovision only sharper, more 3D effect and better DOF. They are a lot cheaper too.

cycleguy · Dec 10, 2012

emmalibertine said:
Basically, it is like the middle of the view is popping out towards me - like the view is convex towards me.

Emma

Hi,

I have experienced this once... w/ the Zen ED2 7x36 when I moved my eyes further back from the eyepiece glass to eliminate some funkiness at the edges of the FOV. Not normally how you would use a binocular, but it did happen.

So maybe experimenting with the distance between the eye and eyepiece can change things??????

CG

brocknroller · Dec 10, 2012

cycleguy said:
Hi,

I have experienced this once... w/ the Zen ED2 7x36 when I moved my eyes further back from the eyepiece glass to eliminate some funkiness at the edges of the FOV. Not normally how you would use a binocular, but it did happen.

So maybe experimenting with the distance between the eye and eyepiece can change things??????

CG

CG,

I think what you experienced with the 7x ED2 was "rolling bowl" not "rolling bowl," but each produces a sense of motion while panning. That is, where the image rolls over a negatively curved surface like a bowl instead of a positively curved surface like a globe (hence, the other name for "rolling ball" - the "globe effect").

Unlike the SV EL, the 7x ED2 has a LOT of pincushion distortion, so much that if ZR took the excess in "Cupid's Bow" at the edges of the field and gave it to Swaro, the SV EL's would be panning smoothly and Emma's vertigo would be gone!

Here's what I mean:

http://www.holgermerlitz.de/curv/pin_curvature.html

<B>

14Goudvink · Dec 10, 2012

[email protected] said:
The SE will give you a similar view to the Swarovision only sharper, more 3D effect and better DOF.

No, it won't. The SV is as sharp or sharper, brighter and has a very wide, immersive field. In comparison the SE's field of view looks cramped. I find the E2 feels more like the SV, but is not as sharp or bright and has a smaller image scale.

George

ticl2184 · Dec 10, 2012

Hi Emma

In my opinion you own the best 32mm bino on the market at the moment. So if you can get used to rolling effect, hang onto them.
Another reason to keep them is Swarovski's excellent customer service and back up, if you ever need it.

When I got my SV's about two years ago and it took me about a week to get used to rolling globe effect.
Hopefully you will eventually get used to it, just focus on what your looking at and don't swap back and fourth with other bino's.

Hope that helps

Cheers Tim

Torview · Dec 10, 2012

Emma,

Can I ask where you found the SV markedly superior to the FL.

I`m not getting Zeiss defensive, I`m genuinely interested, I `v yet to try the SV, hope to at some length at Cleyspy next month.

I found the FL superior to EL, Ultravid because of the lack of C/A, which I see in pretty much everything except FL/HT. The EDG had the same effect as you describe in the SV, to me, also I found it the size and weight of a 42mm, so what`s the point ?

John.

denco@comcast.n · Dec 10, 2012

Torview said:
Emma,

Can I ask where you found the SV markedly superior to the FL.

I`m not getting Zeiss defensive, I`m genuinely interested, I `v yet to try the SV, hope to at some length at Cleyspy next month.

I found the FL superior to EL, Ultravid because of the lack of C/A, which I see in pretty much everything except FL/HT. The EDG had the same effect as you describe in the SV, to me, also I found it the size and weight of a 42mm, so what`s the point ?

John.

"Can I ask where you found the SV markedly superior to the FL"

The edges..

denco@comcast.n · Dec 10, 2012

14Goudvink said:
No, it won't. The SV is as sharp or sharper, brighter and has a very wide, immersive field. In comparison the SE's field of view looks cramped. I find the E2 feels more like the SV, but is not as sharp or bright and has a smaller image scale.

George

There is not a roof made that is as sharp as the SE.

ronh · Dec 10, 2012

People can be amazingly adaptable. I, for example, have learned tolerate
the view through my FLs, even imagining the central view better than the SV, which my wife uses. I expect that you in turn will get used to the rolling ball.
Ron

Torview · Dec 10, 2012

[email protected] said:
"Can I ask where you found the SV markedly superior to the FL"

The edges..

And yet you love the EII, not renowned for sharp edges.

Also the "Circus Mirror" seems a high price to pay for a sharp edge, something a lot of us, me included don`t find all that important.

And to be fair my question was aimed at Emma, I`m well versed with your fickle findings.

Troubador · Dec 10, 2012

Hi Emma

Sorry to hear about your experience with the Swaros.

In your position I would be concerned that if I came to be able to ignore the RB while using the bins on my local patches, I might possibly encounter a habitat or other circumstances that made the RB so obvious that I couldn't ignore it. My fear would be that if this happened over a couple of days or even few hours that my visual sensory apparatus ( I am trying to avoid just saying 'eyes') would become sensitised to RB and I wouldn't then be able to ignore it back on my local patches.

Sorry if that sounds pessimistic. Sometimes wonderful people and wonderful technologies can have a 'fatal flaw'.

I hope you can sort this one out to your satisfaction.

Lee

Rolling Ball: what do I do?! (1 Viewer)

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