Declining Song birds..Farming practises (2 Viewers)

[Anthony Morton]

Hopefully that is an end to it Pete.. Sorry, but when someone suggests that data I present is (unprintable word) I do feel the need to show the evidence.

Perhaps we can now get this thread back to things that can be done to reduce environmental impacts on song birds and away from the pigeons!

That's the whole point - we simply cannot look at the ornithological world and expect to see the 'BIG' picture if we've still got one lens cap on our binoculars.

Whether we like it or not, the items discussed and the various points raised on this thread so far are all relevant and inexorably linked together - and that includes pigeons!

By delving into our libraries and coming up with endless quotes we are only looking backwards at what has already happened - and NOTHING we do now can change that.

If we are serious about wanting future generations to enjoy watching birds, then we must start getting things right very soon. We do not have an inexhaustable supply of birds and when they are gone it will be too late!

Anthony

 

[Jane Turner]

What a pity that you are not prepared to even consider the current first-hand reports coming from all over the UK, rather than relying on figures from the whole of Northern Europe. But then, isn't that the problem when your knowledge only comes from books and you ignore what's going on right under your nose?


Anthony

Yes Anthony.. I prefer to base my views on established and statistically significant data. I'll give you an example.


Based on the observable fact that 100% of your 52 posts have all been directly or loosely attached to threads on Sparrowhawks or Pigeons, I could come to the conclusion that all pigeon fanciers come onto BF with the sole purpose of trying hijack dicsussions in order to build a case for culling Sparrowhawks. Though I suspect no doubt that I would get some support, particlularly from other first-hand observers who had witnessed the same phenomenon, I would be entirely wrong in this conclusion.

Firstly I am only inferring that you are a pigeon fancier. I might indeed have misidentified you. I don't get a lot of chance to observe pigeon fanciers so I may very well have made a simple identification blunder.

Secondly there may be a large number of pigeon fanciers already on BF who are not demonstrating this particular behaviour so basing my conclusion on a single observation, no matter how first hand and real to me, would be erroneous.

The safe obsevation would be that Mr Morton, who appears to be a Pigeon Fancier is showing a behaviour which suggests that he wishes to hijack BF threads. However this is based a single data point and may be modified in the face of further evidence.

>200,000 data points in the Sprawk info btw, before during and after the DDT population crash..

 

[Jane Turner]

I missed thirdly..... it might just be a coincidence that you have only posted about Sparrowks and their alleged predeliction for nice juicy racers. You might be about to start talking about a wide range of other issues/

 

[HH75]

Hi Anthony,
While not wishing to deny people the pleasure that they must get from keeping racing pigeons,and also not wishing to attempt to ban the pastime,surely it is hyperbole to state,as you did,the following:
'Whether we like it or not, the items discussed and the various points raised on this thread so far are all relevant and inexorably linked together - and that includes pigeons!'?
While predation by Sparrowhawks,though not a major limiting factor of passerine populations(indeed,it is the population of prey species that limits that of the predator),is at least relevant to the issue at hand,but I fail to see how racing pigeons are 'inexorably linked' to the decline?
Indeed,and based on inferrences here,I wonder if,in fact,the population 'explosion' in urban Sparrowhawks is due to the species spreading into such areas as a result of the dwindling resources in the wider countryside?I can't prove this hypothesis,but perhaps if the populations of farmland birds were in a healthier state there would be less need for Sparrowhawks to breed in what may be suboptimal habitat,and also less interactions with the pigeon racing fraternity(why bother trying to catch a pigeon if there are lots of finches,tits,sparrows,thrushes etc?)...?
Finally,and I acknowledge that this is based on a miniscule sample size,any time that I have seen hunting Sparrowhawks in my local area,the prey item selected has mostly been a passerine(though I did see a feral pigeon taken by a juv.female,but this is the only such case that I have witnessed)
Harry H

 

[Suricate]

The simplest wy to avoid this is of course not to keep pigeons in the first place.. but since this is a WILD bird forum, its not the place to debate it. Have found the figures for pigeon predation.. and its incredbily low, highest for females in winter, but still below 1% of prey item.

This is the second thread today where you have stated this forum is for wild birds Once again I ask is not friendly discussion better than verbal attacks.
So please can we continue with the discussions on Declining bird numbers.
Farming is still blamed for the decline in so many species but efforts are being made to redress this. DEFRA Stewardship Schemes are encouraging land owners to be more conservation friendly. You obviously have seen the statements regarding the vast amount of hedgerow being planted, this will take time to mature.
But whilst we are on the subject of declining species perhaps you can inform me please as to why when so many ground nesting birds are endangered do we see a group trying to re- introduce another of birds that will devatate their nests and young.
The CROW act will also cause serious problems which is already happening as Country Parks and other areas are being used for raves music shows etc etc.
Bridle ways are ripped up by four wheel drives.
Tons of hay are condemned each season due to dog fouling ( costing the Farmer ).
Light and noise pollution i assume that you have seen the surveys.
The increase in Firework use.
Gardens turned into sterile areas of block paving and decking, even the plants are for show, no real benefit in many cases.
New development that leaves pockets of habitat or even worse corridors along new road development.
These areas need serious discussion and not dismissing.
Does it really matter who likes which species are they not all birds can we not discuss the root problems as to why so many species are declining.
Suricate

 

[Anthony Morton]

QUOTE=Harry Hussey

While predation by Sparrowhawks, though not a major limiting factor of passerine populations (indeed,it is the population of prey species that limits that of the predator), is at least relevant to the issue at hand, but I fail to see how racing pigeons are 'inexorably linked' to the decline?

If the population of the prey species does control the population of the predator as you suggest, then why haven't the number of Sparrowhawks declined along with, and at the same rate as, the passerines? Could it be because they have diversified and are now predating much more on racing pigeons, which is what I am suggesting? In other words, the racing pigeon has replaced at least part of the Sparrowhawks diet.

Indeed,and based on inferrences here, I wonder if, in fact,the population 'explosion' in urban Sparrowhawks is due to the species spreading into such areas as a result of the dwindling resources in the wider countryside? I can't prove this hypothesis, but perhaps if the populations of farmland birds were in a healthier state there would be less need for Sparrowhawks to breed in what may be suboptimal habitat, and also less interactions with the pigeon racing fraternity (why bother trying to catch a pigeon if there are lots of finches, tits, sparrows, thrushes etc?)...?

I couldn't agree more, Harry - that's exactly what I've been saying all along but got pooh-poohed for in what seemed to me a blinkered defence of Sparrowhawks from some quarters

Finally, and I acknowledge that this is based on a miniscule sample size, any time that I have seen hunting Sparrowhawks in my local area, the prey item selected has mostly been a passerine (though I did see a feral pigeon taken by a juv.female, but this is the only such case that I have witnessed)
Harry H[/QUOTE]

At least you've seen a Sparrowhawk take a pigeon - albeit a feral! The place to see an attack on racing pigeons would be within a few yards of their home loft and not out in the open. But in the UK (I'm not sure about Eire) the fancier is not allowed to interfere with, or harm, the hawk in any way - regardless of the damage it is causing, other than to try to 'shoo' it away, because it is protected by law.

There are some extremely good pigeon fanciers in your part of the world and you will probably be able to see where they live when their birds are exercising around the loft. Why not have a word with one or two and find out for yourself what (if any) problems they are experiencing with raptors. I will certainly be interested to hear!

Regards,

Anthony

 

[Edward woodwood]

I wouldn't at all be suprised if Sparrowhawks are taking more racing pigeons these days......

so what?

 

[StevieEvans]

Theres quite a few pigeon men around here,
and whilst none of them particularly enjoy seeing raptors, they accept them as part of the natural environment into which they release their birds, a hazard just like any other that their & their neighbours birds must all face.

You can't expect a Sparrowhawk to ignore a open invitation like a pigeon loft, its just like a garden feeding station, the hawk learns when & where the easiest meals are and return again & again.
I should imagine a nice plump Wood Pigeon lumbering up off the woodland floor to be an easier option than (in many cases) a small flock of Racers flying across country.

Many 'lost' Racers simply 'pack-in' & can be located at sources which provide an easy meal.
We had scores over the years on a prominant hill-top farm at 1000'. This was the highest point around & the racing birds would almost clip the tops of the stone walls on their way past northward. Racers would turn up mostly as singles, but sometimes 2's & 3's we would feed them with corn. Some managed to depart after a couple of days but the majority just found a dry roost in one of the barns & were later found dead.
Another place i have seen many 'lost' Racers was at the local waterfowl park, where again birds seem to have settled for the easy life feeding with Ferals on masses of waste grain.

Sparrowhawks (& Peregrines more likely) do remove Racing Pigeons but i'm Afraid that this is only a small percentage of those that do not return home........

Stevie.

 

[Anthony Morton]

QUOTE=Tim Allwood - I wouldn't at all be suprised if Sparrowhawks are taking more racing pigeons these days......

so what?


If you haven't got something constructive to add to the debate, then at least have the decency to keep out of it.

Yours is a particularly pointless and tactless comment on this occasion and not in the least bit funny.

 

[Anthony Morton]

QUOTE=SuricateThis is the second thread today where you have stated this forum is for wild birds Once again I ask is not friendly discussion better than verbal attacks.
So please can we continue with the discussions on Declining bird numbers.
Farming is still blamed for the decline in so many species but efforts are being made to redress this. DEFRA Stewardship Schemes are encouraging land owners to be more conservation friendly. You obviously have seen the statements regarding the vast amount of hedgerow being planted, this will take time to mature.
But whilst we are on the subject of declining species perhaps you can inform me please as to why when so many ground nesting birds are endangered do we see a group trying to re- introduce another of birds that will devatate their nests and young.
The CROW act will also cause serious problems which is already happening as Country Parks and other areas are being used for raves music shows etc etc.
Bridle ways are ripped up by four wheel drives.
Tons of hay are condemned each season due to dog fouling ( costing the Farmer ).
Light and noise pollution i assume that you have seen the surveys.
The increase in Firework use.
Gardens turned into sterile areas of block paving and decking, even the plants are for show, no real benefit in many cases.
New development that leaves pockets of habitat or even worse corridors along new road development.
These areas need serious discussion and not dismissing.
Does it really matter who likes which species are they not all birds can we not discuss the root problems as to why so many species are declining.
Suricate


Well said Suricate - a number of very interesting points for discussion!

Anthony

 

[Edward woodwood]

QUOTE=Tim Allwood - I wouldn't at all be suprised if Sparrowhawks are taking more racing pigeons these days......

so what?


If you haven't got something constructive to add to the debate, then at least have the decency to keep out of it.

Yours is a particularly pointless and tactless comment on this occasion and not in the least bit funny.

I'm well-known for not being constructive
but anyway so what if more racing pigeons are being taken.....what does that mean? What should be done etc. Nothing flippant. Try answering it. What is the importance?

 

[Jane Turner]

If it was Stock Doves or Turtle Doves it would be mildly concerning!

 

[Edward woodwood]

Here are a few quotes from "Britain's Premier Pigeon Racing Weekly"


Pigeon Fanciers have justifiably claimed over many years that birds of prey kill their racing pigeons. Sparrowhawks, peregrines and to a lesser degree goshawks all take racing pigeons, either from around the loft or when they are racing or training. It can be soul destroying for a fancier who has spent much money, time and effort to see his birds killed and for there to be little legal recourse. These birds are protected by the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 yet is wrong that a fancier cannot even legally protect his pigeons in his own garden from sparrowhawk attacks. Theses raptors even get inside the lofts on occasion yet the fancier is expected to just ‘shoo’ it away.

Pigeons saved countless lives in two World Wars. Their descendants are being ravaged by hawks and raptors along with the Nation's song birds.

We do say that there should be opportunities to humanely destroy troublesome birds and particularly those that take our pigeons from within our own property

Ho Ho Ho

are you for real?

 

[Edward woodwood]

try this
REPORT OF THE UK RAPTOR WORKING GROUP
Chaired by the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions (DETR) and the Joint Nature Conservation Committee (JNCC)

find it at http://www.snh.org.uk/strategy/sr-rap00.htm#4

 

[Suricate]

try this
REPORT OF THE UK RAPTOR WORKING GROUP
Chaired by the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions (DETR) and the Joint Nature Conservation Committee (JNCC)

find it at http://www.snh.org.uk/strategy/sr-rap00.htm#4

I didnt realise that there were quite so many antis on this thread, anti pigeon anti raptors even anti Mary, oh sorry thats auntie Mary.
This is a thread so I thought to discuss Decline in Farmland Species, but excuse me I spotted a thread saying Falconry !!!!!.
All There has been in much of this thread is crass remarks again very similar to the Sparrowhawk debate.
If any, especially those qualified are interested then lets debate the serious issues and try to accept the whole picture and not, when we do not agree or understand something just throw cheap insults.
I would like to know how many are actively doing something or are we armchair critics.
Suricate

 

[Adey Baker]

Hi Suricate

Hopefully, many birdwatchers do do something as well as become armchair critics.

It may not be immediately obvious from some comments on various threads, but many birders do get out and about in their own areas and report their sightings to their local ornithological society.

These may not be headline-grabbing statistics when viewed singly but they help to build up the overall picture and provide the statistics that conservation groups, etc. can use.

For instance, in an area where I birdwatch regularly a number of fields were left fallow, last winter. As well as attracting up to 4 Stonechats, which was an excellent local record, the numbers of Meadow Pipits built up to something like 4 or 5 times the best previous local totals.

A local birdwatcher to this particular area has sent in many records over literally decades so when the records for those large numbers of Pipits were submitted there is some data there to compare them with.

This is just one example for one small area but it does indicate what can be done by each individual without having to tackle the whole problem. I'm sure many birder could report similar stories from thir own experiences.

Adey

 

[Jane Turner]

Adey..

Absolutely, that was my not so hidden agenda for starting this thread in the first place. Ultimately records of feeding flocks have much more long term value than records of scarce migrants and hopelessly lost vagrants.

I remember one year in Cheshire where something like 40 different people sent in records of the same Short-toed Lark, but only 20 recorded any Skylarks...and just in case you were wondering there where 15 breeding pairs in the fields around the STL!

 

[Anthony Morton]

QUOTE=Tim Allwood I'm well-known for not being constructive
but anyway so what if more racing pigeons are being taken.....what does that mean? What should be done etc. Nothing flippant. Try answering it. What is the importance?


Language, Timothy!

Are you a graduate of the 'Jane Turner Charm School' by any chance? You say you are not noted for being constructive - talk about stating the obvious - and then demand that my response should not be flippant. Cheek!

The importance, or rather the SIGNIFICANCE , of the increased predation on racing pigeons during the last 10 years or so is that it acts as a barometer which indicates that, in the case of the Sparrowhawk, the shortage of its usual prey species (songbirds) is being replaced by a higher number of racing pigeons being killed.

We keep hearing the pet theory that predator numbers are governed by their prey but in this case, rather than declining at the same rate as songbirds, the Sparrowhawk population has remained much more constant. Why is this and how is it possible if the Prey/Predator theory works?

Could it be, as pigeon fanciers suggest, that the Sparrowhawk has diversified and is now supplementing its more usual diet of songbirds by killing a far higher proportion of racing pigeons?

Could it be that, as a direct result of the increased number of people feeding birds in their gardens, that the Sparrowhawk has followed them in and is fast becoming an urban bird, bringing more and more of them into contact with racing pigeons?

Will predation on racing pigeons become even higher as Sparrowhawks adapt to living in towns and cities?

What will happen to the remaining songbird population if pigeon fanciers were to stop flying their pigeons, for example during the Sparrowhawk's breeding season, or for even a whole year?

In this case, would the Sparrowhawk population, which is being maintained at an artificially high level by the protection it receives under the Wildlife & Countryside Act, quickly 'mop up' what is left of the songbirds before it is realised what is happening?

Worse still, what effect on Sparrowhawks and their prey would it have if pigeon racing ceased altogether?

In other words, there is neither an infinite or endless supply of racing pigeons in the UK for the Sparrowhawk to rely on - what next if that also disappears?

Anthony

 

[Adey Baker]

On the subject of Skylarks, it might also be useful to send in records of them and Lapwings that attempt to breed in spring-sown cereals such as maize, along with whether the attempt is successful or not

 

[Jane Turner]

Can we start a new thread in RF called pigeons please.