I cannot See China bins! (1 Viewer)

[jring]

And nevertheless, all models are then finalized in Bayreuth according to Steiner's statement (whatever that may mean), see e. g. Interview with Steiner (use for example google translator for english).

Hi,

for those of us who don't read german, here is the relevant part and my translation:

Name der Website (nicht in Übereinstimmung mit den Forenregeln):
Made in China ist auf dem Vormarsch. Warum arbeiten Sie Made in Germany?
Carlo Steiner: Die deutsche Optik-Industrie hat eine besondere Anziehungskraft. Bei uns entstehen 100 % Produktidee und 100 % Engineering der Produkte in Bayreuth. In den Premiumprodukten auch insgesamt bis zu 100 %. In den Preiseinstiegsklassen kommen Baugruppen aus einer weltweiten Beschaffung. Am Ende wird alles hier bei Steiner in Bayreuth zum fertigen Produkt und in alle Welt vertrieben.

Name of the Website (not in accordance to forum rules):
Made in China is on the rise. Why do you use Made in Germany?
Carlo Steiner: The german optics industry enjoys a special appeal. At Steiner 100% of the product idea and engineering happen in Bayreuth. With the premium products also a total of up to 100% (sic!). In the entry level ranges modules from global suppliers are being used. In the end everything is made into a complete product here at Steiner in Bayreuth and then distributed all over the world.

Please excuse the sentence about the premium products... it does not really make sense in german either... also the diction of the german answer is a bit strange. At times it sounds like it was translated (badly) from a foreign language.

Joachim

 

[Mark9473]

At Steiner 100% of the product idea and engineering happen in Bayreuth. With the premium products also a total of up to 100% (sic!).

Please excuse the sentence about the premium products... it does not really make sense in german either...

Joachim, I think you don't deal with lawyers often. ;-)
It actually makes perfect sense to me. Up to 100% means sometimes/often it is less, but occasionally they hit 100%.

 

[Patudo]

I was carefully considering the Zeiss Terra ED 10x42, when I found from reading here that it is likely MIC. Ugh. So, I gather that 'Name' means squat anymore? Ok, who Still makes serious bins? Am I left w/ Swarovski & Leica? Ouch,,, both are well out of my budget. Well, it seems MIC has taken another market and compromised it. Such a shame...

If that is the case, it's because we (Western consumers as a whole) have driven it, by our willingness to buy cheaply produced goods from abroad rather than pay first world wages to our own workers. The post #24 in this thread by Mono sums up this attitude perfectly.

From my limited experience it seems that the better PRC-made binoculars, in terms of build quality, are not the birding types, but those used for astronomy or described as general purpose/quasi-military. I have not personally used an APM hand held binocular, but knowledgeable users seem to be pretty positive about them. I have used a 62-8WYJ 8x30 (apparently a PRC copy of the Soviet 8x30, which was itself a copy of the 8x30 Zeiss Deltrintem) and thought its build quality, although not as refined as the West German 8x30s, was still pretty good, with all mechanicals seeming solid. That particular binocular seemed slightly out of collimation, but it was on a boat and might have been knocked or even dropped. Optically I thought it was pretty good, brighter than the single-coated 8x30s I've used (probably thanks to more advanced coatings) and sharp enough in the centre. Based on Holger Merlitz's reviews, the Xi'an Vision Ares/General HI-T 8x30 would be significantly better yet, both optically and mechanically.

It seems to me that the PRC manufacturers definitely do have the expertise to make "serious" binoculars (mechanically and optically), but because of the number of producers/factories and names under which they are sold, finding the best ones can be difficult. It's also worth noting that in some respects the Terra 10x42 ED (and definitely the Conquest series) is quite probably superior to my 10x40 Dialyt which at one point was the best 10x40 Zeiss could make.

Interesting to read this. I research Alpha Brands for fun in the evening, and I keep coming back to Leica (I own a Leica camera, extremely pleased with quality even if it is the cheap, Japan outsourced model- D Lux Top 109). I am then drawn to Zeiss, but I cannot seem to take a liking to the Swaro's, even though they continuously seem to garner higher ratings. I luv the new Leica Trinovid 10x40, but wow,,, costs more than an Apple MacBook Pro! Or very close to same anyway. 12,200¥

That may indeed be so, but (a) the two have utterly different functions and (b) 20 years down the line the MacBook will have long been superseded by the latest and greatest electronic technology, whereas the Retrovid will still be a very functional binocular, and if anything does go wrong with it, Leica should be able to fix it.

Note, I'm not saying you should go out and buy one - but it might be a good idea to carefully think about what you plan to use the binoculars for, and what level of optical performance and build quality you need, and can afford.

 

[diverdude1]

If that is the case, it's because we (Western consumers as a whole) have driven it, by our willingness to buy cheaply produced goods from abroad rather than pay first world wages to our own workers. The post #24 in this thread by Mono sums up this attitude perfectly.

From my limited experience it seems that the better PRC-made binoculars, in terms of build quality, are not the birding types, but those used for astronomy or described as general purpose/quasi-military. I have not personally used an APM hand held binocular, but knowledgeable users seem to be pretty positive about them. I have used a 62-8WYJ 8x30 (apparently a PRC copy of the Soviet 8x30, which was itself a copy of the 8x30 Zeiss Deltrintem) and thought its build quality, although not as refined as the West German 8x30s, was still pretty good, with all mechanicals seeming solid. That particular binocular seemed slightly out of collimation, but it was on a boat and might have been knocked or even dropped. Optically I thought it was pretty good, brighter than the single-coated 8x30s I've used (probably thanks to more advanced coatings) and sharp enough in the centre. Based on Holger Merlitz's reviews, the Xi'an Vision Ares/General HI-T 8x30 would be significantly better yet, both optically and mechanically.

It seems to me that the PRC manufacturers definitely do have the expertise to make "serious" binoculars (mechanically and optically), but because of the number of producers/factories and names under which they are sold, finding the best ones can be difficult. It's also worth noting that in some respects the Terra 10x42 ED (and definitely the Conquest series) is quite probably superior to my 10x40 Dialyt which at one point was the best 10x40 Zeiss could make.



That may indeed be so, but (a) the two have utterly different functions and (b) 20 years down the line the MacBook will have long been superseded by the latest and greatest electronic technology, whereas the Retrovid will still be a very functional binocular, and if anything does go wrong with it, Leica should be able to fix it.

Note, I'm not saying you should go out and buy one - but it might be a good idea to carefully think about what you plan to use the binoculars for, and what level of optical performance and build quality you need, and can afford.

Yeah, point well taken. That is what attracts me to Zeiss & Leica is that they are probably going to work well one-hundred years from now. Pretty cool and all of a sudden not very expensive either. Well, I'm 96% certain I will go with the 10x40 Terra ED. Reading a little bit about the Schott ED glass really convinced me. 4600¥ from Zeiss and 4050¥ from a reseller.

 

[jring]

Joachim, I think you don't deal with lawyers often. ;-)
It actually makes perfect sense to me. Up to 100% means sometimes/often it is less, but occasionally they hit 100%.

Hi Mark,

you are absolutely correct, for reasons of my mental sanity, I try to avoid contact with lawyers at all costs... ;-)

Exceptions are those that I consider friends and who tend to be mostly harmless for my health when they don't wear a suit (or, heaven forbid, a robe).

Joachim

 

[edwincjones]

Requardless of the politics , MIC allow many to get optics they could otherwise not afford.

edj

 

[lmans66]

Yeah, point well taken. That is what attracts me to Zeiss & Leica is that they are probably going to work well one-hundred years from now. Pretty cool and all of a sudden not very expensive either. Well, I'm 96% certain I will go with the 10x40 Terra ED. Reading a little bit about the Schott ED glass really convinced me. 4600¥ from Zeiss and 4050¥ from a reseller.

Spot on....'That is what attracts me to Zeiss & Leica is that they are probably going to work well one-hundred years from now."

Two things:
(1)You get what you pay for...period.
(2)While I love Zeiss, Leica, Swaro's (not so much on the love part), Meostars.... I know that chances are I won't keep them for life, as good as they are since my bins revolve 'in and out' depending on my fancy. But I do know that chances are that the bins I buy next, will also be a Zeiss, Leica, Meostar...

 

[tenex]

If that is the case, it's because we (Western consumers as a whole) have driven it, by our willingness to buy cheaply produced goods from abroad rather than pay first world wages to our own workers

I disagree. This would be true if just a few manufacturers had moved production to China, and then their profitability had forced competitors to do the same because no one would pay more for local products. However, the fact is that all significant manufacturers stumbled over one another at once in the rush to go MIC, just as they now all do to take other dubious measures for greater profit, leaving consumers with no choice. The blame lies with corporate leadership, and with a notorious handful of aggressive investor/shareholders who pressure them into it.

 

[Mono]

Apart from one which has a large "Made in Japan" badge I have no idea where my various optics are made. Country of origin has never played any role in optics purchases.

 

[Troubador]

Apart from one which has a large "Made in Japan" badge I have no idea where my various optics are made. Country of origin has never played any role in optics purchases.

I have usually known the country of origin since I am a bit geeky like that but it has never influenced my choices.

Lee

 

[edwincjones]

there maybe a lot of blame to go all around,
but when one can buy, or sell, almost as good for $$ instead of $$$$ --- ???

edj

 

[Troubador]

I disagree. This would be true if just a few manufacturers had moved production to China, and then their profitability had forced competitors to do the same because no one would pay more for local products. However, the fact is that all significant manufacturers stumbled over one another at once in the rush to go MIC, just as they now all do to take other dubious measures for greater profit, leaving consumers with no choice. The blame lies with corporate leadership, and with a notorious handful of aggressive investor/shareholders who pressure them into it.

There is another way of looking at this.
In recent decades Zeiss's top models have been called Victory and have been made in Wetzlar. The original Conquests (see The Remarkable First Zeiss Conquests) were made at the Zeiss factory in Hungary and were priced at a more accessible level than the Victories. This concept of a 2-step 'ladder' of Zeiss branded binos to allow beginners to afford Zeiss designed binos was expanded into a 3-step ladder with Terra (at the bottom), Conquest HD (in the middle and produced with a help from a global partner, as the Hungary factory was re-organised for other purposes) with Victories at the top. This gave Zeiss something it hadn't had in the past, a sequence of bino families from beginner prices through mid-range to alpha prices. This also allowed the Zeiss Hungary factory to concentrate on the production of spectacle lenses for Zeiss Vision, and to produce high-end optical components for assembly at Wetzlar. In the meantime although Terras started out as MIC some models were migrated to Japan.
It is arguable that this provides consumers with more choice rather than less.

Lee

 

[tenex]

You're right Lee, there's still a meaningful degree of choice of origin in binoculars... which is now so unusual it's worth noting. I took Patudo to be talking about the bigger picture, manufacturing generally.

 

[Ted Y.]

Hi,

as for whether all Steiner optics is Made in Germany (as I think their website stated some time ago), I would not bet on that...
Nowadays their US site states "All Steiner binoculars come from Germany." (FAQs) - whatever that might mean, while the german FAQ doesn't have any of this (Häufige Fragen |)...
Also, as has been discussed, Made in Germany does not really mean all parts were made in Germany and leaves quite a lot of room for creative interpretation of the rules...

And yes, most of the Steiner range is so-so at best. Some of their top tier models are competitive in their price brackets, but the brand is not much loved here due to their strong affiliation with a pastime not on topic in this forum and also due to their misleading at best "Sports Auto Focus"...

Joachim

Misleading?
It depends.

If one considers the binocular and the human a system working to create the image, the "auto focus" is provided by the human using this model of binocular. A lot of movement and rapid calculus. Not all IF binoculars offer this feature.
I do not know about the "sport" part.
[joke emoji here]

 

[eronald]

There is another way of looking at this.
In recent decades Zeiss's top models have been called Victory and have been made in Wetzlar. The original Conquests (see The Remarkable First Zeiss Conquests) were made at the Zeiss factory in Hungary and were priced at a more accessible level than the Victories. This concept of a 2-step 'ladder' of Zeiss branded binos to allow beginners to afford Zeiss designed binos was expanded into a 3-step ladder with Terra (at the bottom), Conquest HD (in the middle and produced with a help from a global partner, as the Hungary factory was re-organised for other purposes) with Victories at the top. This gave Zeiss something it hadn't had in the past, a sequence of bino families from beginner prices through mid-range to alpha prices. This also allowed the Zeiss Hungary factory to concentrate on the production of spectacle lenses for Zeiss Vision, and to produce high-end optical components for assembly at Wetzlar. In the meantime although Terras started out as MIC some models were migrated to Japan.
It is arguable that this provides consumers with more choice rather than less.

Lee

My local shop stocks Nikons which are probably Kamakura at 40% of Zeiss prices. Having lived in Japan, I would say that Nikon will get better prices and quality control from their long-time national partner than any foreign company will. So If one wants Kamakura, one should buy it from a Japanese brand, eg. Nikon or Kowa, at large-chain prices and forget this debate.


In France this debate has gone on for a long time in the wine industry, which in the end adopted a legal mandate that top wines need to be made from locally grown grapes bottled on site. If the bottling and growing aren’t done on the same site then the wine can’t be labelled the same way. And a bureaucrat who tests wines told me that if they check and find a cheat they get really unhappy. However I learnt from a fellow student that the champagne area is an exception, with large firms getting a dispensation to buy in grapes, and thus the production is in fact tiered, and only the best customers get the good stuff, the rest get the same bottles with something else in them. Which is something the insiders know, but the PR and advertising staff may not

Edmund

 

[MiddleRiver]

Yes, when the Retrovid came out we had it taken apart to see if there was any oriental origin in it, which there apparently wasn't. Well made in Portugal by Leica which explains the high price. The HD version (like theZeiss Conquest) is from oriental origine though and for that reason cheaper.

Jan

HD version… what does this mean? Are you saying trinovid/uvd HD’s use MIC components?

 

[jan van daalen]

HD version… what does this mean? Are you saying trinovid/uvd HD’s use MIC components?

No the Conquest and Trinnie are Japanese, although some say Made in Germany....... (sigh, long lasting issue).

Jan

 

[MiddleRiver]

No the Conquest and Trinnie are Japanese, although some say Made in Germany....... (sigh, long lasting issue).

Jan

Ahh… thx.
I assume a bean counter at any company will figure out how to shave pennies (DM?) where possible. But - not doubting you, just curious - how does one know when looking at a box of bits in plastic or metal? Other than being privy to internal company sourcing…?

 

[jan van daalen]

Ahh… thx.
I assume a bean counter at any company will figure out how to shave pennies (DM?) where possible. But - not doubting you, just curious - how does one know when looking at a box of bits in plastic or metal? Other than being privy to internal company sourcing…?

No secret, regarding the Conquest I was told by Zeiss during a meet and the Trinnie was opened by us to examine the used components.
Jan

 

[AlphaFan]

how does one know when looking at a box of bits in plastic or metal? Other than being privy to internal company sourcing…?

It’s increasingly difficult to know for certain, especially these days. Schott optical began manufacturing outside of Germany in 1967, and now manufactures glass, blanks, lenses, prisms, etc in over 30 countries. Only the principles know for certain what country that highly touted “Schott HT“ glass in someone’s favorite binocular came from. There’s also nothing new about an OEM making components and even entire binoculars, but I‘ve always found it curious that nobody seems to question their sourcing.

One big driver for all the secrecy appears to be consumer impressions. By the postings here and all over the internet folks always seem to favor a claimed place of manufacture like Germany, Austria or Japan; and, associate various inferences of lesser quality if made elsewhere.