Oberwerk 8x32 SE (4 Viewers)

[Paultricounty]

Well, the answer is clear then - you say "not much will", I say "nothing will".
We all continue buying cars, TVs, solar panels, mobile phones, basically everything, and we love to overlook that all of these goods - or theit components - are to a large part now MIC. So we don't have to go into politics (which the BF admins don't like) to figure out that using the term "shame" is basically hypocritical, unless we all drastically change our purchasing habits. It's not done by just not buying binos that are MIC ......

I said not much , not nothing. When our sons and daughters or grandchildren are in uniform in theater opinions will change, I would just hope and pray that something changes before that. No, hypocritical would be complaining about something you don’t like a country is doing, and then sending your money to them, that’s kind of the definition of a hypocrite. If you read my posts or many others not just here but on other forums you would know that its not just about not buying MIC binoculars. I don’t overlook that a huge portion of goods and or the materials are made in the CCP. I just try my best to choose products even at additional costs, even if it lowers my standards of living a little bit than to buy MIC. And as far as items that are not MIc, but the nuts and bolts are, that’s a real hard one to get away from.

To clarify my point is that a lot of very good entry level and mid level optics are made in a communist country and I prefer that they were made almost anywhere else. So like all of us you have your choice hypocritical as it may be to continue to buy Chinese goods without second thought.

 

[Canip]

I think you and I are talking at cross purposes, so I will stop here. Let’s get back to debating more in line with the subject matter of this forum.

 

[Cest]

It’s a shame they’re MIC.

I am not a fan of China, but unfortunately reality at the current moment limits our choices. I would pay more if they could be made in the USA. However, I see little movement toward that. I do own Maven's that are either Japanese components assembled in the USA or from the Philippines. I can't afford an alpha. I don't like lot's of things US corporations are doing either, for example Disney. We all must navigate through our sick world as best we can.

Now let's leave all of that sadness aside and stick to binoculars and birds.

 

[Binastro]

With an old uncoated binocular one may need to give a slight polish by an expert to all surfaces then multicoat after establishing what glass types are involved.

I did discuss this with an expert and a really good single coated lens element can be multicoated by adding the correct extra layers.
But I don't know how many single coated binoculars are good enough for this.

Another way is to measure each lens element carefully and have new elements made.
This tends to result in the lens elements made by bespoke Chinese factories.

Several oldtimers used to polish old elements, aspherise them and single coat them in their home workplace.
But I doubt anyone does this now.

I think a few old uncoated aerial lenses were aspherised and coated by the major British makers.

I'd be interested to know how much the cost would be now to multicoat old binoculars commercially.
It may be that they buy new multicoated prisms of the right size from Chinese stocks.

Regards,
B.

 

[wllmspd]

As long as you knew roughly the refractive index you could pop a coating g on that would be good enough, better than a single layer, but not fully optimised. Being able to use standard recipes will keep the cost down. Determining the index of a curved sample isn’t the easiest, but you could sniff the likely composition. Think someone reported on recoating some old WW2 FlakBinos.

Peter

 

[dries1]

I have been using my optics to check targets this week, a bit of CA on the white board from the usual subjects.

 

[Binocollector]

It may be that they buy new multicoated prisms of the right size from Chinese stocks.

I'm pretty certain that is NOT what they do. But I will just give them (Optikservice Schilling) a call. I got a few binos that need some love and are too precious to mess with them myself.
I think, even when it might be a couple of hundred € -- a newly coated Hensoldt from the 40's will still mop the floor with any current MiC porro.
I compared the Hensoldt Dialyt 8x56 of my aunt with my new MiC "Kite Cervus HD 8x56" (both with AK-prisms) and the Hensoldt annihilated the Kite when it came to sharpness across the field. The only downside were in fact the old coatings. If that Hensoldt would still be made today and with modern coatings, I am certain it would be at least twice the price of a Kite Cervus.
So even if newly coating an old Hartmann Porlerim would cost 300€ or maybe even more -- I think it might still be worth it. Of course if the total cost of restoring them exceeds the cost of a Nikon EII or even a Swaro Habicht, then it's maybe not worth it.

 

[Paultricounty]

I think you and I are talking at cross purposes, so I will stop here. Let’s get back to debating more in line with the subject matter of this forum.

I agree, it is very difficult to succeed together if we have different goals. Mine is just not to enrich the CCP. others may not care about the consequences as long as they can get good cheap stuff.

There is no doubt that these and other Oberwerk‘s are good cheap stuff. These ED or SE’s if we’re going to continue to call them that. That’s what they’re called on the website but not labeled on the binoculars, I wonder why. I’m stunned by how good optically $250 binoculars can be. The build quality is not quite up to the optical quality, but I would wage that if they were MIJ, people would spend twice as much for them. I challenge anybody to show me a better pair of binoculars optically for $250. If they were made somewhere else I’d buy the whole set and throw one in each car.

 

[tenex]

The traditional manufacturers, first in Europe and USA, then also in Japan, have one by one (still ongoing) either given up producing binos, or started outsourcing more and more of the work and the parts, driven by ….. all of us!!! We all want it better, cheaper, faster. And that‘s exactly what we are getting - via MIC! 😞

Better? hardly, faster? hardly, cheaper? only somewhat. From the outset (early 1980s) the rush to MIC was simply driven by profits due to lower wage cost. Some savings may also be passed on to the end user, but the central motive has always been corporate profit, which was compelling enough to continue even through early years of poor quality and customer complaints, then made money like crazy with no regard for working conditions or environmental costs, and is only starting to shift now due to geopolitics. Consumer capitalism is long dead; this is not our fault.

 

[dries1]

Corporate profit, (yes the Canadians could not move fast enough to China for a buck).

 

[Binocollector]

@tenex
I wanted to write basically the same but you took the words right out of my mouth.
Just a little anecdote -- a friend of mine works in QC for a manufacturer producing automobile parts (mainly clutches) and they (of course) also source parts in China. He said, the costs to ensure they get the quality they need, are so high that he cannot understand they still buy parts there at all. Production is actually actively moving out of China because of these issues, at least in some sectors.

 

[jring]

Just a little anecdote -- a friend of mine works in QC for a manufacturer producing automobile parts (mainly clutches) and they (of course) also source parts in China. He said, the costs to ensure they get the quality they need, are so high that he cannot understand they still buy parts there at all. Production is actually actively moving out of China because of these issues, at least in some sectors.

Hi,

I still think it is quite possible to get good consumer grade or even premium quality from china... ask Nikon, Kamakura or Apple how it is done... probably by implementing strict QA rather than just QC...
All of this costs money, regardless of where it is done. I think the current exodus from china of some western manufacturing has different reasons... which are very much off topic here.

Joachim

 

[Canip]

Consumer capitalism is long dead; this is not our fault.

Great - so I can continue buying all that MIC stuff and not feel bad about it - not our fault, and we know who to blame 👍

 

[Paultricounty]

Great - so I can continue buying all that MIC stuff and not feel bad about it - not our fault, and we know who to blame 👍

We’re you feeling bad about it before you knew capitalism was dead ? 😜

 

[Paultricounty]

As Canip said let’s get back to the the discussion of the OP. Before some more people try to legitimize sending our hard earned money to a communist country and rustling more patriots feathers.

Leaving out the politics of current emotions of China and assuming for the moment they were not as evil as most of us know , would we buy more of these MIC optics , and would we want to see the next level of optics made there if it meant saving money ?

Would most of us buy our MHG’s , Conquests , maybe even SFL’s if we could save a few hundred dollars?
We already buy our Nikon Monarch 7’s, Zeiss Terra’s etc. etc. I’d assume many will would buy the next level , as did many who bought other glass that was previously MIJ or Germany. Will we be buying our Swaro Habicht’s, Leica binos cameras and lenses from China soon. Again let’s leave out the politics, I think I would. As someone here posted about the QC, many things are made extremely well in China, the IPhone is a perfect example. In the past I’ve bought some knock off Chris Reeves knives at almost 1/3 the price of the original, and most would not be able to tell the difference.

Of course we do have to keep in mind that a lot of the manufacture is done with CNC machines, so it does make sense that QC levels could easily improve with some better management of the final assembly procedure.

 

[Patudo]

1. Isn't profit the holy grail of capitalism?

2. Can birders of a certain vintage recall whether there was similar angst about buying East German (Zeiss Jena) or Russian (KOMZ etc) binoculars back in the old days? I only know that Zeiss Jena enabled many birders who couldn't afford a Zeiss West or Leitz to equip themselves with decent "glass" - as did Japanese imports, Japan, of course, being regarded not dissimilarly to how the PRC is today (the up-and-coming Asian economic giant that would eclipse the US, etc).

 

[Binocollector]

I think many didn't even know where the binos were made back in the day. There were many Japanese and Russian binos sold under different names or through mail order catalogs like "Otto", "Quelle" and "Neckermann". Komz binos were sold as "Revue" or "Bresser" as were a ton of Japanese binos. Some carried German sounding names like "Adler". I think apart from the German manufacturers themselves (who probably saw a drop in sales), there wasn't much awareness of where stuff was made. There are exceptions of course. My mother's family seemed to be Hensoldt fans . I got the old 6x24 from my granddad and an aunt of mine still has a Hensoldt 8x56 "Dialyt" (still an awesome bino).
My dad had a Tasco 10x50 and his dad a 10x50E Steiner.