• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
Where premium quality meets exceptional value. ZEISS Conquest HDX.

Please, help me choose between these 5... (1 Viewer)

Hi João

As big of an advocate as I am of the HR WP Porro , I believe the roof models on your list would be better for your intended use. If you can find a pair of the discontinued Vortex Fury in 6.5 or 8X, they would also be a strong contender. As much as I would like to be able to tell you exactly the best pair for your needs, the reality is that you almost need to try the different models to see how they work for you personally. Since that probably isn't a possibility, then if I were you , I would try the Sightrons.

Good Luck
Bruce

Hi everyone! :)

For almost one year now, I'm trying to replace my binoculars and buy a very good pair of new ones, during this period of time, I've done a lot of research and have come to five final models that I think would meet my needs...

  • Sightron SII Blue Sky 8x32 (Know that these are 10mm smaller in diameter but so many people love them...)
  • Bushnell Ultra Legend HD 8x42 (Heard that the 10x42 is better)
  • Optricon HR WP 8x42
  • Hawke Frontier ED 8x43
  • Zen Ray ED3 8x43

Would you help me choosing one?

I'm looking for the best all-rounder, with the best optics, that is easy to hold steady and gives the best overall experience when birding, at different conditions and different habitats.

If you think that, there is another one that is not listed above, please, i would be very pleased with your opinion. My budget is around 425$, 330€, 260£.

Thank you very much.

Best Regards,
João Morgado
 
On another note, you can get the Bushnells for around $225....and I think there is still one Internet retailer that has the Leupold Cascade porros for about the same price. You could buy either one of those two and the Sightron 8x32 ($180) for a little over $400 and within your spending limit of $425. Nothing like having a full sized and mid sized glass to choose from depending on your needs and intended application.

Just a thought.
 
There are quite a few assumptions you are making in your post Dennis.

The Opticron HR WP and the Leupold Cascade porros both have "Made in Japan" stamped in raised rubber on the underside of their central hinge. It isn't just a small sticker on the underside of the binocular. Does that mean anything? I would say so but I am sure you could argue that it doesn't.

Interestingly Minox, a German company, also makes a similar model, the BD BP. It has all the same specs, etc.. except the objectives are advertised at 44 mm instead of 42. I have owned those as well. Other than a slightly different color rendition and heavier rubber armoring I found them to be identical to the Opticron and Leupold models. I don't remember if "Made in Japan" was stamped on the underside of that model. Maybe one of the forum members that owns them currently could comment.

This conversation does remind me of one of the posts here in, I think, the Zeiss forum regarding the "Made in...." label. If I remember the post correctly it focused on exactly what "Made in...." means in various countries. Apparently the requirements surrounding that label aren't as stringent as they are in the US. So, something like a Zeiss Conquest HD could say "Made in Germany" by their requirements but by our requirements it would not meet that standard.

Kind of makes you wonder if the "Made in...." label really means anything provided the end result is a reliable and well made product doesn't it?

As for reliability and quality control, I would certainly agree that there have been some issues raised around the focusing tension of the Sightrons. Some units are stiffer than others to turn. Other than that I don't remember reading any complaints. I seem to remember reading similar comments about Swarovski and Leica products at one time. I also remember reading (and can agree with from personal experience) that externally focused porro prism models such as your Nikon SE stiffen up considerably in colder weather.

What I can say for sure is that after 13 months of regular use I have had zero issues with my Sightron SII 8x32. The focus has not stiffened up. The central hinge isn't any looser. The diopter adjustment hasn't moved. The binoculars are still well-collimated.

I am not sure what else you are asking for a binocular to do after 13 months of regular use. I certainly would consider that acceptable in my book.

I am curious though. Where did you get the info that Sightron's Phillipine facility utilizes the same "SOP" as the factories utilized in China? Furthermore, what factories in China as there are many?..and where did you find that they only test 1 in 100 units?

Do you have an inside source at Sightron too?

I have to admit that I do enjoying reading your posts for a variety of reasons but your assumptions with this one are so far out in left field......

;)
My point Frank is that I feel Leica, Zeiss, Swarovski and the higher end Nikon's are of a higher quality and are more consistent in quality than the Chinese binoculars on his list. To say "Made IN Japan" a binocular only has to have a small percentage of parts in it that are actually Japanese made. You will notice this in cars. You would be VERY surprised if you knew what the actual percentage of USA made parts there are in your Chevy! I highly doubt every part in an Opticron is really made in Japan. It would be amusing but maybe even Swarovski is sourcing parts from China. I highly suspect Swarovski is getting their focuser parts from China. It would explain the rough feel and uneven tension. After having many, many of these binoculars I find I have been more satisfied with the binoculars that aren't Chinese made and that is why I would recommend a used or older alpha. EVERYTHING AND I MEAN EVERYTHING IS MADE IN CHINA ANYMORE. KEEP THAT IN MIND.
 
Last edited:
Hi!

First of all, thank very much for all the answers! They are a huge help because although I read a lot about each individual model I didn't know how they would compare to each other.

Some of you brought up some new great points of view, and I'm seriously considering them!

I forgot to mention that I'm buying a Helios Fieldmaster 60Ed/ Theron Saker...

I'm now considering the Zen Ray 8x43 ED3 or the 7x43 ED3 as my all-round binocular, because of the most favorable comments, and their light gathering ability, especially the last one and because my eyes could make use of the light they gather in lowlight conditions.

I'm just afraid that the 7x magnification could be too little, because here the birds don't let approaching, and many birders here use 10x magnification binoculars...

On the other hand, last night I went to bed thinking... for the money of the Zen ray ED3 I almost could buy two binoculars...

And I thought of two possible combos:

Zen Ray 7x36 ED2 + Bushnell Legend Ultra HD 10x42

Or

Vortex Fury 6.5x32 + Sightron SII 8x32 + Bushnell Legend Ultra HD 10x42

I'm just afraid that these binoculars could be much inferior in IQ and Built quality over Zen Rays, and shakier...

What do you think?

Thank you very much for everything!

Best Regards,
João Morgado
 
Dennis,

I am not disagreeing with your point about China or your experiences. My experiences mirror yours to an extent. I have noted more quality control issues with Chinese manufactured binoculars than I have with European models.

With that in mind I would expect to find more quality control issues with less expensive models because they are less expensive not necessarily because of the place of origin. Corners have to be cut somewhere as all of the lower price cannot necessarily be laid at the feet of cheaper labor costs.

It would be interesting to see how a higher priced Chinese manufactured binocular would fair in the area of quality control. If I knew what the exchange rate was between the Yen and Euro then I would suggest a similarly priced Chinese binocular to compare with something like the SV, FL or Ultravid.

I guess that the only point of yours that I have an issue with is that you are lumping all Chinese manufactured binoculars in as one group. In my experience quality control varies depending on price point and facility of manufacture. Some are notably better in quality control than others.

I do find your comments about "Made in Japan" interesting. Isn't the Nikon SE made in Japan? Not to sound argumentative but how do you know all of the its parts are manufactured in Japan and not China? Heck, the Nikon ED50 spotting scope is manufactured in China and everybody raves about it.
 
I'm just afraid that the 7x magnification could be too little, because here the birds don't let approaching, and many birders here use 10x magnification binoculars...

On the other hand, last night I went to bed thinking... for the money of the Zen ray ED3 I almost could buy two binoculars...

And I thought of two possible combos:

Zen Ray 7x36 ED2 + Bushnell Legend Ultra HD 10x42

Or

Vortex Fury 6.5x32 + Sightron SII 8x32 + Bushnell Legend Ultra HD 10x42

I'm just afraid that these binoculars could be much inferior in IQ and Built quality over Zen Rays, and shakier...

What do you think?

Thank you very much for everything!

Best Regards,
João Morgado

I am probably not the best person to ask about the 7x magnification and general use simply because I admit a bias towards 7x magnification (check the "Should I go 7x?) thread to verify those comments. I use it for everything from backyard birding to hawkwatching at great distances. I find the attributes specifically associated with 7x binoculars to suit my tastes much more than higher magnifications models. To each his own though. I cannot fault someone for picking a 10x model if they prefer the larger image representation.

As for your combinations, I don't think the Fury is available anymore unless you find an online retailer that still has some in stock. I have owned and handled that model on two occasions and I think you would be happy with its performance. However, the price of it coupled with the Sightron and the Bushnell would be over your budget by a $100 at least.

The ZR 7x36 ED2 (demo unit) coupled with the Bushnell Legend 10x42 would also be over your budget by at least $50 if not more depending on where your purchase it from.

Your best bet if you want two models would be the Sightron 8x32 and the Bushnell Legend Ultra 10x42 if you want to stay within your budget.
 
Last edited:
João,

I tend to use a 7x most of the time, but unlike Frank I often bring along a 10x or 12x as well instead of a scope. I couldn't say which magnification(s) would be best for your needs.

Some other lower power pairs may be worth considering.
Meopta Meopro 6.5x32 (almost identical to the Votex Fury, maybe better)
Viking MD 6.5x32 (good performer but more basic design)
Vortex Viper HD 6x32 (fairly expensive but excellent)
Opticron Savanna 6x32 (cheap but very good small porro)
Kowa YF 6x32 (like the Opticron but a shade better IMO)
Busnell Elite 7x26 (compact reverse porro, very good indeed but not waterproof)
Opticron Classic 7x36 (unsophisticated but top performance)

(I own the last two.) Of course there are the Zen Rays which I haven't seen, and a large number of 7x porros including the Vixen that is Frank's current favourite. Most of those except the little porros would use up or exceed your budget particularly at European prices. It would probably go rather further at US prices as Frank suggests.

Good luck,

David
 
Thanks for your reply Frank and David!

I think with a little bit of effort I can reach the 500$ that are needed to buy the combo:

Zen Ray 7x36 ED2 demo + Bushnell ultra legend HD 10x42

The 7x36 better for Low-light, Forest and Pelagic trips; and the 10x42 better for open habitats and distant birds of prey...

Hopefully these binoculars, will be smaller and lighter than de ED3, and I can hold them steadier to make a better birding experience...

What do you think?

I think this combo, maybe, will be better than one single 8x43 ED3 for all purposes?

Thanks for everything!!

Best Regards,
João Morgado
 
Last edited:
João

I have a combination roughly similar to what you are contemplating. Between the Minox BD 10X44 BP, Zen Ray ED2 8X43, and Vortex 6.5X32 Fury, I have a binocular for almost any occasion, all three for less than $600. For me, the "Alpha" level resolution and illumination of the Minox Porro along with the all around excellence of the Zen are a tough combination to beat. You could do virtually the same thing with the HR WP and the ED3. If you are CA sensitive, then stay with the Zen ED series, maybe the ED3 in 7 and 10X as a pair.

Another small roof that is supposed to be good for the money and has a great warranty is the eagle optics 6X32 ranger.

http://www.eagleoptics.com/binoculars/eagle-optics/eagle-optics-ranger-srt-6x32-binocular

Nothing set in stone here, just my thoughts based on what I know from reading a lot of comments on here and then either validating or disproving them by what I see with my own eyes through my binoculars.


Bruce


Hi!

First of all, thank very much for all the answers! They are a huge help because although I read a lot about each individual model I didn't know how they would compare to each other.

Some of you brought up some new great points of view, and I'm seriously considering them!

I forgot to mention that I'm buying a Helios Fieldmaster 60Ed/ Theron Saker...

I'm now considering the Zen Ray 8x43 ED3 or the 7x43 ED3 as my all-round binocular, because of the most favorable comments, and their light gathering ability, especially the last one and because my eyes could make use of the light they gather in lowlight conditions.

I'm just afraid that the 7x magnification could be too little, because here the birds don't let approaching, and many birders here use 10x magnification binoculars...

On the other hand, last night I went to bed thinking... for the money of the Zen ray ED3 I almost could buy two binoculars...

And I thought of two possible combos:

Zen Ray 7x36 ED2 + Bushnell Legend Ultra HD 10x42

Or

Vortex Fury 6.5x32 + Sightron SII 8x32 + Bushnell Legend Ultra HD 10x42

I'm just afraid that these binoculars could be much inferior in IQ and Built quality over Zen Rays, and shakier...

What do you think?

Thank you very much for everything!

Best Regards,
João Morgado
 
Last edited:
I`d like to chirp in for the HR WP, I find it to resolve as well or better than pretty much anything, the 10x42 is on my must have list to complement my 8x32 FL, I want the resolution of the Zeiss but not the price tag as I rarely use a 10x, nothing else I`v tried comes close under 1k.

Dennis, you`re wrong about the top Japan made Opticrons, their build, focuser quality is right up there, hell the new Dba Mg reminds me of my old HG without th C/A.
 
João,

I certainly don't see an issue with the ZR 7x36 and Bushnell 10x42 combo. You would have both ends of the practical use magnification spectrum covered. The two bins you chose are roughly the same physical size though they offer different ergonomics because of the open vs traditional hinge style.

I like the ZR 7x36. I have been really tempted to buy one of the demo units for $275 but funds are not currently available unless I sell something else. Hopefully ZR has enough in stock to last a couple of months.

;)
 
100% truth in these statements. Watch out though, you might put Howard Stern's panties in a wad. :-O

I`d like to chirp in for the HR WP, I find it to resolve as well or better than pretty much anything, the 10x42 is on my must have list to complement my 8x32 FL, I want the resolution of the Zeiss but not the price tag as I rarely use a 10x, nothing else I`v tried comes close under 1k.

Dennis, you`re wrong about the top Japan made Opticrons, their build, focuser quality is right up there, hell the new Dba Mg reminds me of my old HG without th C/A.
 
João

If possible, try and get a look through the powers (7x, 8x, 10x, etc) of binoculars that you are considering, from people you know, or meet, out in the typical environments that you will be in (and times). This will give you a better idea of what you want.

As for the question of 8x, or 7x and 10 or 12x; this is something I have been considering myself of late. Many people here have their favourite magnifications, or systems, and some can be quite die-hard about them, but may not be anywhere near your age, or viewing similar targets, in environments, and times that you will be using your bins, so it really is up to you. To try and help a bit .....

7x v's 8x - Short answer is 7x is most useful for close-in, dim viewing (such as jungle) where it excels, whereas 8x is more of an all rounder (suitable for all distances).

7x offers:
*larger exit pupil (6.1mm for 7x43) which is useful for 3 things - easier, and quicker eye placement, better low light performance** (particularly in heavy jungle, or in the higher latitudes where twilight periods are longer), effectively better image quality in brighter light, as your eye will 'stop down' the exit pupil aperture, which in effect uses only the centre portion of the view, which is usually of a better quality.
*greater depth of focus (perception) - this is always useful.
*usually greater true FOV, although check the AFOV (= mag x true FOV°) to make sure the view is just as immersive. ie. Zen 7x43 ED3, true FOV =440ft @ 1000 yards or 8.34° => AFOV =7 x 8.34 = 58.4°
*usually more Eye Relief (great if you wear glasses; can be difficult sometimes if you don't).
*smaller image scale (can be useful when viewing close-in, such as birds flitting back and forth in jungle), also easier to hold steady.

8x offers:
*14.3% bigger image than 7x, which makes it more useful at a wider range of distances. About as much magnification as most people can hold reasonably steady.
*43/8 = 5.4mm EP (all anyone really needs for daylight to sunset viewing, no matter how young they are). A good compromise, which allows full brightness under normal daytime shadows, a bigger image for more detail, and still some image quality benefits as sunset approaches.
*less depth of focus (perception) than 7x, but much more than 10x, and perfectly adequate for normal viewing at all distances.
*usually less true FOV than 7x, i.e. Zen 8x43 ED3, true FOV =426ft @ 1000 yards or 8.08° => AFOV =8 x 8.08 = 64.6° (so less true FOV than the 7x, but still quite wide, and more AFOV, so the view is more immersive).
*usually less eye relief than the 7x, but still suitable.

10x and 12x offer obvious magnification and image size benefits, but also a whole lot of drawbacks (or compromises), such as -
*smaller EP's for a given objective size, makes eye placement more critical, dimmer view except in bright light, and uses all of the EP, so binocular optical quality becomes more critical.
*narrow depth of focus (perception) - can be problematic in all but the highest quality bins. Lots of re-focussing needed can make following swifts for example, very hard work.
*narrower true FOV, can make following fast moving flocks, or behaviour, impossible, or more difficult.
*less ER (can be problematic for those wearing glasses to get the full FOV).
*higher magnification amplifies 'shakes', which makes actually seeing any more detail difficult, if not impossible, sometimes you even see less. A mono-, or tripod, or stable rest is recommended to actually 'see' clearer images.
*higher quality (more expensive) bins, are usually needed in the higher powers.

In summary:
#Only get 7x, if you will be doing lots of close-in, thicket, or jungle birding. Then you will likely need a 10x or 12x as well for viewing distant raptors etc.
#If your viewing will cover all conditions, and distances, then get the 8x. It will be as powerful, and bright as you need - you'll be very happy with it (don't worry about the image being smaller than 10x, since it will work far better at actually 'seeing' things 80% of the time anyway - particularly due to the greater dof, and FOV). 1 binocular will then be sufficient (allowing you to put all your money in a higher quality bin), and then there's always your scope for the long distance work.

The Zen ED3 is optically, and mechanically a step up from the ED2. I would stick with the ED3 if you are going Zen-Ray. You won't go wrong there.

Another bin which is worth a mention is the Vixen 8x42 Foresta Porro, a bit less FOV than the Zen, but a still a nice bin. http://www.adorama.com/VX842ZWCF.html

If your budget for 1 bin, creeps up a little bit, consider the Japanese made Swifts I mentioned before. The eaglet is a little narrow for FOV, but a fine quality view (64 layer dielectric, and triplet objective), and light, while the 8.5x porro is optically excellent (some say 'alpha' level), with some mechanical idiosyncracies .....
Swift Eaglet 8x42 http://www.opticsplanet.com/swift-10x50mm-bwcf-kestrel-binoculars.html
Swift 8.5 x 44 Audubon 820 ED http://www.adorama.com/SW820ED.html



Good luck with your choice!
Chosun :gh:


**although there is some debate around the twilight factor = √(mag x objective size), i.e. for 7x43 = 17.3, higher numbers = better, but some feel that a 5mm+ EP works best with as much magnification as available. ie. 8x43 = 18.5, better, and 10x50 = 22.4, better again, and 10x56 = 23.7 which is better still.
 
Last edited:
I am a big fan of ZEN ED2 7x36 binoculars. The depth of field is probably the best in that price range. Also, if you can find it, some Pentax DCF ED binoculars are also quite nice
 
Another bin which is worth a mention is the Vixen 8x42 Foresta Porro, a bit less FOV than the Zen, but a still a nice bin. http://www.adorama.com/VX842ZWCF.html

I am glad you mentioned that binocular. I had not thought of it despite the fact that I am a big fan of the entire Foresta porro lineup. I am still trying to get my hands on the 8x32 after having owned the 8x42 and 7x50. Maybe some time in the near future.
 
Dennis,

I am not disagreeing with your point about China or your experiences. My experiences mirror yours to an extent. I have noted more quality control issues with Chinese manufactured binoculars than I have with European models.

With that in mind I would expect to find more quality control issues with less expensive models because they are less expensive not necessarily because of the place of origin. Corners have to be cut somewhere as all of the lower price cannot necessarily be laid at the feet of cheaper labor costs.

It would be interesting to see how a higher priced Chinese manufactured binocular would fair in the area of quality control. If I knew what the exchange rate was between the Yen and Euro then I would suggest a similarly priced Chinese binocular to compare with something like the SV, FL or Ultravid.

I guess that the only point of yours that I have an issue with is that you are lumping all Chinese manufactured binoculars in as one group. In my experience quality control varies depending on price point and facility of manufacture. Some are notably better in quality control than others.

I do find your comments about "Made in Japan" interesting. Isn't the Nikon SE made in Japan? Not to sound argumentative but how do you know all of the its parts are manufactured in Japan and not China? Heck, the Nikon ED50 spotting scope is manufactured in China and everybody raves about it.
The Zen Ray Prime is supposed to be a high end Chinese binocular and I hear ALOT of complaints on the threads about it concerning inconsistent quality. I don't think it is necessarily price point but rather a cultural intrinsic attitude towards quality and quality control. I don't think a Chinese binocular regardless of price will ever be equal to a German or Japanese one regarding quality. "Made in China" has always meant CHEAP to alot of people and it is going to take time and the Chinese proving they can make a quality product before they will change peoples minds.
 
Last edited:
#If your viewing will cover all conditions, and distances, then get the 8x. It will be as powerful, and bright as you need - you'll be very happy with it (don't worry about the image being smaller than 10x, since it will work far better at actually 'seeing' things 80% of the time anyway - particularly due to the greater dof, and FOV). 1 binocular will then be sufficient (allowing you to put all your money in a higher quality bin), and then there's always your scope for the long distance work.

:t:
 
"Made in China" has always meant CHEAP to alot of people and it is going to take time and the Chinese proving they can make a quality product before they will change peoples minds.

They've changed my mind. The focuser on my ZR 10x42 Primes is a dream to use, very smooth and precise, whereas the focuser on my Swaro 10x32 ELs is...well, if I can't say anything nice, better to say nothing at all. The optical quality is within a hair of each other, I keep going back and forth.

I have a "cheap" Chinese binocular compound microscope which while not equaling the mechanical quality (but it's still very well built) of my Nikon SKE or my B&L Dynoptic, is just about as good optically with clear pleasing views and it cost a lot less new than the other "oldies but goodies" at auction.

I have several telescopes with Chinese optics, for instance a 5" Newtonian and a 5" Maksutov-Cassegrain whose optics are impeccable, both not just barely diffraction-limited but easily, with outstanding contrast and resolution.

So the Chinese are capable now of making high quality products - you can't just point a finger at one bad example and broad brush them all.
 
I think so: do not waste your money! It'd be better to accumulate funds and get the best. Trust me - ZR7x43ED3 + Zeiss10x32FL will really be the best choise..........))) Sincerely...
 
Warning! This thread is more than 13 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top