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Ruddy Duck Cull (1 Viewer)

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Tom

KV is a birder and not a conservationist. He is respected for his ID skills etc, not his conservation work. He is also very keen on Chew Valley Lake and perhaps has a soft spot for Ruddy Duck. He has the right to be anti cull of course but it can't be based on much more than an affection for the species.
 
Didn't say that I agreed with Vinicombe, however, you surely cannot say that his very vocal opinions are not based on a thorough understanding and wide reading of as much available literature as possible. His view is an interpretation of the same data you guys have read.

Again, not saying I agree...
 
"Didn't say that I agreed with Vinicombe, however, you surely cannot say that his very vocal opinions are not based on a thorough understanding and wide reading of as much available literature as possible. His view is an interpretation of the same data you guys have read."

Would need to hear from him in order to confirm or deny this.

Dave
 
"genetic evidence has proved the birds are NOT American"


"In the 1950s the North American Ruddy Duck escaped from the Slimbridge Wildfowl Trust in Gloucestershire and quickly multiplied. Although it caused no apparent ecological problem in Britain its spread to mainland Europe has been a great deal more troublesome. Here it threatens populations of closely related white-headed ducks through interbreeding. A suggested method of control is their extermination from Britain and Europe. Many, such as British conservationist Bevan Craddock, fear that it is too late to save the white-headed duck and feel that we would do better to to direct resources towards establishing a working group to examine the whole issue of restricting the introduction of alien species (Drewett, 1996)."

Perhaps, this is the reason for the amount of effort on the part of the WWT in relation to the "Ruddy Duck problem". Embarrassment perhaps, mixed with a little guilt!!

See :-
http://www.wwt.org.uk/threatsp/pastwwt/nard.htm


Regards

Malky.
 
tom mckinney said:
I don't think it is "unsupported theory" to suggest that blasting ducks on a wetland will have an impact on all bird/wildlife in the area - that seems to be a major part of Jason's argument.
Not wanting to divert the thread, but are we talking lead shot here? Or is the shot now made of something less environmentally pernicious? Thinking of the swans and anglers debate here. For the record I'm a "don't know" on Ruddy Ducks.
 
"Not wanting to divert the thread, but are we talking lead shot here? Or is the shot now made of something less environmentally pernicious? Thinking of the swans and anglers debate here. For the record I'm a "don't know" on Ruddy Ducks."

Don't really know Jason but I've an inkling that lead shot is banned now anyway, if not it obviously should be. I'm sure the relevant bodies insist on non-lead shot as there are less polluting alternatives available.

Dave
 
Not that bad a debate folks. If a case is strong enough it wins the day surely?
Pro cull have done a good job highlighting weaknesses of anti-cull side IMHO.
Be more worrying though if those in 'authority' were allowed to get on with it without the questions being asked, wouldn't it?

Slightly different note, if Ruddy is capable of wiping out WH, which it seems it is, then isn't the rationale behind them being seperate species being called into question a bit or is it only because of the size of the WH pop?
 
Brendan T said:
Slightly different note, if Ruddy is capable of wiping out WH, which it seems it is, then isn't the rationale behind them being seperate species being called into question a bit or is it only because of the size of the WH pop?
I think ducks are a law unto themselves. Mallards ain't too fussy about what ducks they mate with. And many years ago a male Ruddy displayed to an RSPB warden at Radipole!
 
"if Ruddy is capable of wiping out WH, which it seems it is, then isn't the rationale behind them being seperate species being called into question a bit"

An excellent point Brendan, I'm surprised it hasn't been raised before. I assume that studies have been carried out that show that the two have diverged sufficiently to be regarded as separate species (assuming, that is, that they have the same common ancestor) but I don't know this. However, even if they were genetically close enough to be regarded as the same species (see below though) they are still distinct and clearly diagnosible *taxa* and W-h D would deserve conserving regardless of its species or subspecies status. It's hard to get out of the mindset that species are more important than subspecies but as the distinction between the two is often so vague anyway we must make that leap sometimes. The term Evolutionary Significant Unit (and ugly phrase I know but at least it carries the meaning of the concept it refers to well) has sometimes been used in preference to 'species' or 'subspecies', it can be usefully applied in this case.

In any case, there isn't, as far as I'm aware, an agreed point of genetic divergence at which a subspecies becomes a species anyway. Genetics, thankfully, is not the only taxonomic measure used (and it isn't the holy grail some imagine it to be), though it is nevertheless a very useful and interesting tool.

I'm not a geneticist and I don't pretend to understand genetics very well, so if anyone can correct any of the above or offer further clarification I'd appreciate it!

Dave
 
godwit said:
"Not wanting to divert the thread, but are we talking lead shot here? Or is the shot now made of something less environmentally pernicious? Thinking of the swans and anglers debate here. For the record I'm a "don't know" on Ruddy Ducks."

Dave
Lead shot is banned for use by anglers: has been for years! But NOT for use by wildfowlers (or cullers!)
 
That's what I suspected, David. Question is: Do the RSPB cullers actually use cartridges filled with lead shot or some alternative? As I said, I'm neutral on the Ruddy Duck issue, but I'd have some difficulty if the RSPB - who campaigned strongly against the use of lead shot in angling - were guilty of the same sort of pollution through shooting. Do they have a policy on this?
 
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me1000 said:
Godwit,
me of course.
OFFS! Here we go AGAIN! I take it 'me' is a wildfowler! A 1 oz lead is HUGE!!!!!! NO angler uses them! Most specimen anglers use the 'method system' when ledgering: this uses large feeders which NO waterbird could EVER pick up! Here is an extract from a delightful 'loading and penetration' table from a wildfowlers' website:
Many people load their shotguns with lead swanshot, usually #6 shot or smaller, to minimize interior wall penetration. Number 6 lead birdshot, when propelled at 1300 fps, has a maximum penetration depth potential of about 5 inches in standard ordnance gelatin. Not all of the pellets penetrate this deeply however; most of the shot will penetrate about 4 inches.

Wildfowlers still load their cartridges with lead and spray it all over the landscape! I was at Walberswick last Winter and watched a trap of geese hunters shoot a bittern..... It was HORRID!
I append this photo in the SURE knowledge it will offend some anti-aqnglers, but this Bream was caught using the method and returned unharmed within seconds. Neither it, nor any wildfowl, encountered ANY lead shot or ledger weights.
By the way: I DO know about angling if nothing else! This is NOT opinion, it is FACT! I was a columnist for a major angling magazine for ten years.
 

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godwit said:
However, even if they were genetically close enough to be regarded as the same species (see below though) they are still distinct and clearly diagnosible *taxa* and W-h D would deserve conserving regardless of its species or subspecies status. It's hard to get out of the mindset that species are more important than subspecies but as the distinction between the two is often so vague anyway we must make that leap sometimes.

Dave

Agreed Dave. Wh deserves conserving regardless but its interesting with regards taxonomy. The impact of the Ruddy is perhaps a bit surprising given the differences in appearance between the two and my assumption (based on nothing particular!) that they had been seperated from each other for some time (perhaps time is not a such a factor in this case though?)
 
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