The darker side of listing (2 Viewers)

[merryslug]

I passed a "No Trespassing" sign once because I figured it was technically angled in such a way that it could be construed to not mean "down the littel road I wanted to go down."

Around the next corner was another sign "THIS MEANS YOU - NO TRESSPASSING!" LOL I had to turn around - no misconstruing that one.

 

[Adam W]

This has nothing to do with birding but : The vast majority of my many friends and people that I meet break some laws constantly because some laws in this country are 100% incompatible with their 'culture'. They will continue to do so until they are dead, and good on 'em.

Why 'good on 'em' ? How on earth anyone can think that saying a particular law doesnt fit in with my culture(whatever thats supposed to mean) so i'll just ignore it is a good thing is simply beyond me.
As aleady pointed out where would we be if everyone took that view? I'm sure you can find people out there who'll dissagree with every law there is what would happen if everyone just chose to only obey the ones they happen to agree with?

Still find it simply Staggering that we are even having this debate let alone possibly the majority on the side of not obeying the law.

 

[Redshank3]

I will pose the question again what percentage of woodland large raptor nests do you know of that are public areas compaired to private woodland?

I have found that it is unusual for a landowner to turn down a request to visit their ground though there may be a few restrictions , such as keeping out of the woods a few days before a pheasant shoot.

Ok, I'll bite in response to this

I cannot speak for all parts of the country - I have no figures to back this up but based on personal experience these arguments about access somehow preventing raptors nesting are incorrect:

I Have experience of birding mainly in 2 areas:

1) South Devon - most woodlands private with no access whatsoever legally.
Buzzards very common, Sparrowhawks fairly numerous and peregrines fairly numerous. No idea where most of these are nesting but it will be on private land since as as already stated vast majority of woodland private with no access and often not even nearby access to enable viewing from afar. Peregrines I know of all in areas frequented by public with public access. For obvious reasons I will say no more except that peregrines do not seem at all bothered by nearby footpaths etc provided there is a good cliff/building.

2) Forest of Dean, Gloucestershire - most woodland public access owned by forestry commision or if not then cut through by many footpaths.
Again buzzards common, sparrowhaks common, goshawk present, peregrine in several sites.
Peregrines in a few more secluded sites but equally in some very prominent sites with public access. Buzzards, Sparrowhawks and Goshawks all breeding in woodland with public access - this is essentially status of entire forest of dean.

In my opinion giving the public access has no impact at all except where numbers of people accessing a site are very high and unfortunately I often think this is actually because of generally restricted access elsewhere:

Locations with public access in areas of otherwise very poor access do have a significant numbers of visitors simply because they cannot legally go anywhere else!

Personally I do not trespass often; I have entered private land without permission on occasion - sometimes accidentally, but mainly in order to circumnavigate a landowner's deliberate blockage of legal public rights of way ie barbed wire strung across stiles etc.

 

[Richard Klim]

Still find it simply Staggering that we are even having this debate let alone possibly the majority on the side of not obeying the law.

Adam, I don't think anyone's suggesting that we all engage in rape, pillage and plunder. In the spirit of the thread, a few of us owned up to some mild misdemeanours. Have you always obeyed every rule? Did you never have a smoke behind the bicycle sheds at school, or indulge in the occasional spliff, or enjoy an after-hours lock-in at a pub or, dare I say, park illegally on a yellow line(!)? (I'm guessing probably not.)

Not for the first time, a (light-hearted) thread has attracted those who can't resist an opportunity to express indignation at others' behaviour. As I mentioned in post #7, perhaps predictably we seem to back to the usual 'Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells' scenario.

 

[canadagurl123]

Well actually the worst rare bird I've been on we weren't even on the persons property but we were standing on the street or across the street and I recall them being very irate for having 75 people staring at a Northern Hawk Owl in their yard.

I've certainly sped on the road once or twice ( I dont usually drive) when I got told about the rare bird just before dark and I wanted to get there before dusk. Or in a rush to get before I have to go to work/school.

i've gone on people's private property before but there are certain places in Victoria where birders know certain farm properties allow you on as long as you don't walk through the fields. Also I've had people including myself ask someone if theycan go into their driveway or even in the backyard to see a bird. Most recent case was a Northern Mockingbird in someone's yard this year.
Also had to walk on someone's property because the tide was too high so I couldn't get to the spot where there was a Black Phoebe.

 

[ovenbird43]

I passed a "No Trespassing" sign once because I figured it was technically angled in such a way that it could be construed to not mean "down the littel road I wanted to go down."

Around the next corner was another sign "THIS MEANS YOU - NO TRESSPASSING!" LOL I had to turn around - no misconstruing that one.

Haha!

I've made similar mistakes, only usually I've ended up in front of someone's house before realizing it :eek!:

 

[Si Clayton]

The dodgy Short-toed Eagle thread currently running is an excellent illustration of "The Dark Side of Listing"!
Anyone trespassing on our place for birds would not be aware of their impacts, even trampling flora with a single pair of feet could impact threatened species. It's best to assume you don't know what you're disturbing if you're not in familiar territory, it's the precautionary principle.
Regardless of the law, we share the planet with more species than we can name, so at least respect the land you trespass on if you're going to disrespect the landholder.

 

[Johann Sebastian Bach]

Well actually the worst rare bird I've been on we weren't even on the persons property but we were standing on the street or across the street and I recall them being very irate for having 75 people staring at a Northern Hawk Owl in their yard.

An interesting addition to the moral questions concerning trespass.
As you describe, I've sometimes found myself in residential areas looking at something good in gardens. This particularly happens in the UK when we get invasions of waxwings, or the occasional unusual thrush. There was a particularly large waxwing invasion last winter and websites have been inundated with photos.
Therefore, there's been a massive increase in birders (many with cameras) staring into private property. No trespass involved. Instead, a paparazzi-style bunch of eager (usually male) birders apparently staring into your bedroom window.

Peter

 

[MJB]

Anyone trespassing on our place for birds would not be aware of their impacts, even trampling flora with a single pair of feet could impact threatened species. It's best to assume you don't know what you're disturbing if you're not in familiar territory, it's the precautionary principle. Regardless of the law, we share the planet with more species than we can name, so at least respect the land you trespass on if you're going to disrespect the landholder.

Si,
That's a point I thought of making in my previous post, but it was long enough already! For example, rhizomania is a disease that affects root crops, and can be spread simply by walking through an infected crop. There are quite a few other examples where casual crossing of a field can cause problems, but it would seem from some preceding posts that birders in pursuit of a bird are somehow different in that they couldn't possibly be causing such difficulties. In central Norfolk, some farmers who have put up notices on tracks advising of rhizomania in beet crops have had them torn down, I doubt if this was done by birders, but the action of disregarding requests or laws you don't like can't be limited just to what any individual thinks appropriate.
MJB
PS If your 'culture' demands you disregard certain laws, presumably you, in acting responsibly, would be involved with some group lobbying to change the laws accordingly? Or would you leave it to someone else...?

 

[Adam W]

Adam, I don't think anyone's suggesting that we all engage in rape, pillage and plunder. In the spirit of the thread, a few of us owned up to some mild misdemeanours. Have you always obeyed every rule? Did you never have a smoke behind the bicycle sheds at school, or indulge in the occasional spliff, or enjoy an after-hours lock-in at a pub or, dare I say, park illegally on a yellow line(!)? (I'm guessing probably not.)

Not for the first time, a (light-hearted) thread has attracted those who can't resist an opportunity to express indignation at others' behaviour. As I mentioned in post #7, perhaps predictably we seem to back to the usual 'Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells' scenario.

Richard, I do accept and agree with your general point that most people will at some point be guilty of breaking some minor laws but i think what i'm really finding hard to accept isnt so much what people are doing its more the way they are coming on here almost bragging about it and actively encouraging others to do the same, if they were (as some here have) just being honest enough to admitt to doing it but kind of know its wrong but there's worse things happening in the world then i'd probably say fair enough.

As for the examples you gave well i can in all honesty say (perhaps rather sadly you might think) i have never done any of those things, the thought of smoking has never even crossed my mind and dont get me started on the subject of drugs! I also dont drive so cant really commit motoring offences(not saying i wouldnt if i did drive) I do at least drink but honestly dont think I've ever had a lock in.

 

[Robin Edwards]

Picking up from Peter's post...

I've gotten into plenty of uncomfortable situations just being in public areas and carrying a Camera & lens. No tresspass, no huge gathering of twitchers, no peering into old ladies windows or gardens, but particularly in the US, lots of distrustful people and questions from those in uniform.

 

[chowchilla]

Richard, I do accept and agree with your general point that most people will at some point be guilty of breaking some minor laws but i think what i'm really finding hard to accept isnt so much what people are doing its more the way they are coming on here almost bragging about it and actively encouraging others to do the same, if they were (as some here have) just being honest enough to admitt to doing it but kind of know its wrong but there's worse things happening in the world then i'd probably say fair enough.

As for the examples you gave well i can in all honesty say (perhaps rather sadly you might think) i have never done any of those things, the thought of smoking has never even crossed my mind and dont get me started on the subject of drugs! I also dont drive so cant really commit motoring offences(not saying i wouldnt if i did drive) I do at least drink but honestly dont think I've ever had a lock in.

Ah Adam, you're too good that's your problem!

 

[Johann Sebastian Bach]

I'd be interested to know what birders from outside the UK make of the police in this tale.

I was on a 24-hour bird race, about 20 years ago. It was about 02.30 and our "team" was staking out a little owl on the edge of a housing estate. We were dressed in dark clothing, some of it camouflage. We all had binoculars and were vainly trying to make out a suitable shape in various trees.
A policeman came by in a patrol car. He came over to us and asked what we were doing. Our explanation, "We're doing a 24-hour bird race, trying to see how many species we can clock up in a day. We're hoping to see or hear a little owl here." He was completely satisfied by the answer and returned to his car without further comment.

Does this sound odd to you, taking into account that the world was a different place 20 years ago, or is the UK a little more used to eccentric behaviour?

Peter

 

[chowchilla]

I'd be interested to know what birders from outside the UK make of the police in this tale.

I was on a 24-hour bird race, about 20 years ago. It was about 02.30 and our "team" was staking out a little owl on the edge of a housing estate. We were dressed in dark clothing, some of it camouflage. We all had binoculars and were vainly trying to make out a suitable shape in various trees.
A policeman came by in a patrol car. He came over to us and asked what we were doing. Our explanation, "We're doing a 24-hour bird race, trying to see how many species we can clock up in a day. We're hoping to see or hear a little owl here." He was completely satisfied by the answer and returned to his car without further comment.

Does this sound odd to you, taking into account that the world was a different place 20 years ago, or is the UK a little more used to eccentric behaviour?

Peter

It sounds completely normal to me in the UK context where this sort of behaviour would not raise as many eyebrows as in other countries. In Aus, the police might believe that story, but that doesn't mean that they wouldn't harass you anyway or even arrest you if they were bored...

 

[Robin Edwards]

I often smile to myself when I compare situations in the UK with those abroad.

I've had situations where a 999 call has been in order in the UK and two hours and several further calls later an irate policeman turns up to see what gun crimes he's missed.

In Florida a few years back I awoke one morning and went for a wander down the street and stopped to watch an obliging Brown Trasher in a bush close to an adjoining golf course and within two minutes two sheriff squad cars had received their call from a curtain-twitcher (always the worse sort) and had made their swoop. They asked me some questions and after a fashion left the scene warning me that locals were paranoid since 9/11 and would find my sort a threat.

I've since found this site but not sure it would wash carrying one of these ?
http://photographernotaterrorist.org/bust-card/

Robin

 

[Trystan]

I'd be interested to know what birders from outside the UK make of the police in this tale.

I was on a 24-hour bird race, about 20 years ago. It was about 02.30 and our "team" was staking out a little owl on the edge of a housing estate. We were dressed in dark clothing, some of it camouflage. We all had binoculars and were vainly trying to make out a suitable shape in various trees.
A policeman came by in a patrol car. He came over to us and asked what we were doing. Our explanation, "We're doing a 24-hour bird race, trying to see how many species we can clock up in a day. We're hoping to see or hear a little owl here." He was completely satisfied by the answer and returned to his car without further comment.

Does this sound odd to you, taking into account that the world was a different place 20 years ago, or is the UK a little more used to eccentric behaviour?

Peter

Had a similar experiance around 7 am in the morning looking for waxwings round a housing estate. The police were happy with my explanation.

 

[csanchez7]

People in the U.S. are definitely a lot more sensitive to these sorts of issues (people with binoculars, forget about trespassing -- they'll just shoot you). I have been stopped at a major birding hotspot called Cutler Wetlands by police vehicles asking what I was doing, and I even had to show them the contents of my backpack. They informed me that they had received calls from people that I was "looking into people's houses with binoculars."

Keep in mind, the nearest backyards were perhaps 100-500m away and fenced in with 7 foot high fencing BEHIND me. The actual wetland area I was looking at doesn't even have any houses within view closer than a kilometer.

Ridiculous.

Carlos

 

[Mysticete]

I have been stopped by border patrol while birding (at nature reserves) along the Mexico border in San Diego. Usually they are friendly and more curious on if you have seen anything than about the legality of your own activities. I have had harsher questioning along the Rio Grande in Texas, but still nothing major.

 

[rosbifs]

I have had a couple of comments along the lines of "have you joined the police" when walking around the village with binoculars.
I also got kicked off a site in fleury, France. The bloke wasn't too happy I was there but I guess thought I was up to no good.....

 

[Robin Edwards]

I have been stopped by border patrol while birding (at nature reserves) along the Mexico border in San Diego. Usually they are friendly and more curious on if you have seen anything than about the legality of your own activities. I have had harsher questioning along the Rio Grande in Texas, but still nothing major.

I always respond passively and these situations have never turned into anything too serious but most recently I have been asked by a female security guard from her squad car whether I had ever hear of Al-Qaeda when walking with camera along a side-walk near Dallas. I had taken a few shots of a bright pink sunset and she suggested that this was an abnormal thing to want to do so I should make myself scarce to avoid being taken in.

My attempts to get these folk to see the funny side of the situation seem to always fail though - maybe my style of humour is a very British thing ?