Uk400club 'list Of Lists' Etc Etc (2 Viewers)

[rollingthunder]

"As and when individuals cease breathing or twitching, their names will be removed or placed in italics."

:-O I must say, that particular sentence conjures up an image of Lee checking the Death Notices in the local press before finally removing somebodys reco rds !

Despite some personal and negative comments i have enjoyed this thread and altho do not twitch that much these days (preferring to travel within the WP) had the pleasure of twitching most of the stuff from late 70's to early 90's including 10 consecutive Autumns' on the Scillies and was priveliged to work on Blakeney Point for a couple of years pre-internet, pre-pager. Just Nancy's Cafe year-round and the 'Cressa in the Autumn. A lot of the people are still around, some have phased and some are no longer here but i am glad to have met them and am still following their twitches 'virtually' - Like him or loathe him LGRE is unique, if he was'nt doing what he does then somebody else would be - live and let live and enjoy the birds and the possibility that you might find 'the big 'un' local-patching

 

[Thing]

Rewinding a little, theoretically an employer of a 'twitcher' that has suspicions that sickies had been pulled could pay the fee to get access to the UK400 lists by masquerading as a fictitious newbie (I don't know how it works) and get access to the employees list? For birds that have a Friday night flight, this could be quite interesting...

[inserts usual caveat regarding grinding axes etc]

 

[Thing]

Oh, and if I were to bother my arse to go to a twitch - should I expect to have to identify myself for the purposes of the birders database?

[inserts as above etc]

 

[marklhawkes]

--- In [email protected], LGREUK400@... wrote:
> As you have placed all of my emails in the public domain, I think it is only fair that all of your insulting and aggressive emails are also placed on record. As such, I shall be placing such material on the UK400 Club email group and blog site for others to browse.....

Lee, even now, when you find yourself in an indefensible position, you continue to believe the best form of defense is to make even more inaccurate statements. I posted two of your emails to that forum - this is not ALL of them (if you wish, I can post them all!!). As someone who parades himself as a statistician, you really should learn the basic skill of being able to count....

--- In [email protected], LGREUK400@... wrote:
> I don't think anyone would deny that you did not do a good job in your role as
county recorder whilst it lasted.

Lee, I guess we'll chalk this down as one of your most hypocritical posts ever to a public forum, as this fly's in the face of everything you have been saying in public for the last week or more....

Furthermore, for those who don't read Cambirds. Stuart Elsom has come forth and denied being in cahoots with Lee in a "plot" to remove me as county recorder... therefore Lee has been fabricating lies about other people, fabricating statements and infurring others involvements in public. Lee, as well as the excellent summary posted by Johnny, you are a compulsive liar too... although I'm sure most people can see that now.

I still want my list removed from for UK400 Joke Club... and as you keep insinuating that I'm a stringer and my list is fabricated, then this only further adds to my failure to understand why you continue to insist on keeping it on there. It must be unfair on the few people who are below me, and makes a mockery of the list!! (I'm being facetious in case you can't tell!). Perhaps you have an unhealthy obssesion about me?

As to the Maderian Petrel - Leave it to the BBRC and BOU to sort out... haven't you heard; they are the official keepers of the British List after all

 

[KenM]

You know I think that Madeiran Petrel is the sea-watching equivalent of Pallid Swift.

I've seen a few Madeirans abroad, and not found them hard to ID. I've never seen a candidate in British waters, but even with my slightly cavalier attitude to submitting records, I'm 99.9% sure I'd never be confident enough to send one in, even with a good close view, despite having more experience with Leach's than probably anyone else in the country. I reckon my only hope is to pick one out of the garden pond.

The other bird in this category is immature Eleanora's Falcon

Sounds like you'd need a DNA sample to chance your arm on that one!

The first time I saw Eleanora's, was a flock c100 individuals of varying phases/ages...cosmetics aside the single structural difference that I observed was the tail length (also wings) giving an extraordinary 'rakish' look, more so than any other falcon that I've seen..from my perspective this would be the first feature to look for.

 

[Jane Turner]

Younger birds are shorter tailed and blunter winged and hence quite confusable with Lanner, underfed Peregrine and assorted hybrids. They are also rather poorly described since the vast majority stay on the wintering grounds.

See this one for example

 

[rollingthunder]

Found at the recent White-Throated Robin twitch - looks suspiciously like somebodys UK400Club life list!.........

 

[Lee Evans]

Mark

There is no such thing as official and if you continually feel the desire to cut and paste my arguments with you into different forums, that is your prerogative too. I am not surprsied that the individuals mentioned do not want themselves dragged into this very public slanging match, why would they want to be - so be it. I am happy to act as the scapegoat and it doesn't bother me, you branding me as a liar. You don't particularly interest me, and you don't stand out in the great scheme of birding, so why on earth would all these insinuations/accusations be of interest to me as an individual - I can't help it if other people flag others up for interest and solicit correspondence with me. It only happens with a very few individuals - and it just happens to be Mark Hawkes, Johnny Allan and others that have frequently chosen Birdforum as a platform for their opinons. I can't stop this in any more that you can stop me seeing you at a twitch and making a mental note of your presence.

Johnny, the three guys that contacted me about your behaviour did so very reluctantly because they know your worth - black belt, etc. They just felt that there are two sides to every story and wanted me to know that all is not well in the 'Beddington Badlands'.

Jane, many thanks for your additional comments but I'm still none the wiser what to do with the record - Leach's or Madeiran.

 

[marklhawkes]

There is no such thing as official.....

You mean official British list? You really are out of touch:
http://thebritishlist.blogspot.com/2009/12/official-list-of-birds-of-great-britain.html

Supported by: British Trust for Ornithology ● Countryside Council for Wales ● English Nature ● Joint Nature Conservation Committee ● Royal Society for the Protection of Birds ● Scottish Natural Heritage ● Scottish Ornithologists' Club ● Wildfowl & Wetlands Trust ● The Wildlife Trusts

I'd be interested to know if any of the above have ever listed the UK400 Club as one of their associates or partners!! :-O

 

[Jane Turner]

Jane, many thanks for your additional comments but I'm still none the wiser what to do with the record - Leach's or Madeiran.

Let the BBRC decide, that is their job. Not all birds can be squeezed into one cell or other on a spreadsheet. I didn't see this bird nor speak to any observers, but I expect if it was good enough to put out they saw a lot. I'm not sure I could let go of a record like that if I was in the same boat.

I keep meaning to look the tails of Leach's more - to work out how many are in tail moult when they pass (the paper reckoned 10% in July) - I tend to just sit in my armchair and watch them. Ihave seen birds in heavy tail moult before and it really affects their jizz/flight

But imagine this rump (no divide, not V-shaped and wrapped around) on the same bird as this tail - with those central TFs having just a few days more growth.... with an abraded carpal bar. My memory is that most claims of Madeiran Petrel are early in the season, which is unfortunately when Leach's have the highest potential to pull this evil trick.

 

[marklhawkes]

I'm still none the wiser what to do with the record - Leach's or Madeiran.

Someone please lend Lee a coin so he can get on with flipping it... :-O

 

[Lee Evans]

Jane

Does that mean then that if the BBRC decide to reject the Madeiran Petrel, then those observers who went through the concerted effort to submit it, lose a tick. Of course it is of only interest to me and those that observed the bird as we are the only ones that keep lists - the BBRC as a Committee aren't interested in listing or its ramifications.

This whole UK400 Club listing thing was clearly exemplified by last year's House Finch occurrence. Why did so many people - over 3,000 in the end - travel to see such a bird knowing full well it was NEVER going to be accepted by the BOURC - at very best, all they could hope for would be a ship-assisted vagrant - and BOURC does not count them if it is proven they travelled on board.

Back to the Madeiran Petrels off of Pendeen - John Swann has kindly asked me to clarify further just in case of confusion. There were two different birds in early autumn 2009 seen from Pendeen Watchpoint - one on 20 August seen by Brett Richards et al and the one I mentioned on 3 September that was multi-observed. The former has already been adjudicated by BBRC and was rejected - the latter is still under review. A photographed individual from a Scilly pelagic (Bob Flood et al) has apparently now been accepted.

 

[Jane Turner]

Jane

Does that mean then that if the BBRC decide to reject the Madeiran Petrel, then those observers who went through the concerted effort to submit it, lose a tick.

If they

a.chose to tick it before it was adjudicated on and
b. rely on BBRC acceptance to determine if something is on their list

- then yes. These do tend to be mutually exclusive conditions of course.

Its possible that the descriptions contain features that could never be shown by a moulting Leach's - I just know that I'd never be happy claiming one in UK waters unless I had my hands on it, or some sort of photo evidence that allowed me to count the tail feathers, establish the state of moult etc - having seen the subterfuge that Leach's are capable of! Its actually one of my greatest fears seeing what I believe to be a Madeiran Petrel. Its up there with getting excited and f***ing up an Albatross ID. I've already managed the 3rd - unsubmittable views of a Pterodroma

 

[Jane Turner]

Why did so many people - over 3,000 in the end - travel to see such a bird knowing full well it was NEVER going to be accepted by the BOURC - at very best, all they could hope for would be a ship-assisted vagrant - and BOURC does not count them if it is proven they travelled on board.

Goodness only knows. I've even had one on my bird table - I was ever so miffed that it wasn't a Rosefinch. Juv on 17th Oct 2001. I'd better keep quiet next time one gets out of Chester Zoo.

 

[Gavin Haig]

Against all expectation it poured with rain here in E Devon this morning. So, in the absence of needles to poke in my eye it seemed obvious I would have to read this whole thread from beginning to end.

To Johnny Allan et al: there is no way you are ever going to get your names off this list by recourse to reason. You are dealing with a completist. This is an obsession which does not know reason...

Regarding the 'rubbishing' of various claims. Has it not ever childishly been thus? So why the indignant protesting? Perhaps there is more injured pride than usual because it's all on a public forum rather than in a huddle of gossipping anoraks at a twitch. It goes with the territory if you're a single observer, or one of a small and exclusive group of 'fortunate' observers. Rise above it, for goodness' sake.

However, my morning was not totally wasted. A couple of priceless quotes:

As and when individuals cease breathing or twitching, their names will be removed or placed in italics.

As any medic will tell you, twitching can still occur after breathing has ceased.

And finally, some pedantically accurate use of the singular...

The lists will be gone by tomorrow night so you won't need to worry about them - locked away and out of sight for my eye only.

All goes to prove what it says on the BUBO Home Page: '...bird listing is as vibrant, active and exciting as ever.' How true.

 

[Jane Turner]

However, my morning was not totally wasted. A couple of priceless quotes:

I for one, am so glad it was raining in Devon this morning!

 

[Garry Bagnell]

Sorry everyone, but this thread is becoming very tedious and I think the mods should close it down very soon. We've heard it all before and no one is going to win any of these particular battles. Much of this thread should be discussed face to face, not on a forum.

If more and more hatred is going to be thrown around in the next couple of days, we won't just need step ladders at the next twitch, but first aiders as well.

Nobody is on this planet for long, can't we all just TRY to get on with one another, and enjoy the birds we see.

 

[upstarts1979]

I know we all have different views and opinions on the subject on this thread, but one thing that will hopefully unite us all, is this kind if behaviour.

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=198118
A honey buzzard reported from the Swanton Novers Watchpoint yesterday , though I did not see it. Plenty of common buzzards , plus marsh harriers , red Kites and hobby during the week. Due to the thoughtless actions of a number of birdwatchers walking the long grass to disturbe the quail for a sighting despite being asked not to the birds have left the watch point long grass ( where I suspect they were nesting ) , but they still in the area.

It should be condemned in a more vociferous manner than what are the rights and wrongs of the UK 400 list.
Maybe time for a truce everyone ..no one is going to back down on a public forum. I think its time for Harry Hill to step in ...FIGHT8-P

 

[PhilW]

Nomad

I'm not into goodwill or gestures - I do that in enough ways already. The lists will be gone by tomorrow night so you won't need to worry about them - locked away and out of sight for my eye only.

Lee.

The lists aren't locked away for your eyes only. They are available to anyone who subscribes to the UK400 club and can be viewed via the UK400 club members area.

http://www.uk400clubonline.co.uk/members-log-in/

Anyone who is a 'subscriber' (whether subscription is free or otherwise) is able to see the lists you post including your estimated totals for birders who don't wish their lists to be included, who have never submitted their list to you and who have asked for them to be removed. Surely this part is in contravention of one of the main principles of the data protection act? Namely that an individual has the right to view the data held on them and insist it is corrected if its wrong?

Incidently the link where you can click and ask for membership details appears to be broken. The list has also been removed from the 'file' section of the UK400 Yahoo group page where you assured everyone it was always visible to members of that group.

 

[Helsinki Birder]

Sorry everyone, but this thread is becoming very tedious and I think the mods should close it down very soon. We've heard it all before and no one is going to win any of these particular battles. Much of this thread should be discussed face to face, not on a forum.

If more and more hatred is going to be thrown around in the next couple of days, we won't just need step ladders at the next twitch, but first aiders as well.

Nobody is on this planet for long, can't we all just TRY to get on with another and enjoy the birds we see.

Garry,

Hang on now. This is getting very hypocritical.

Lee has demonstrated time and time again, that he does not carry out his "Black Ops" investigations in person, but always behind other birder's backs and by electronic media. Yet no one can tackle him via those same forums which he utilizes to target any and all records he dislikes, and promote himself and his blogs, by spamming them with the same content over and over?

I have said for a long time now, that there is something quite wrong with birding, and I have to say Lee and his ilk epitomize it.

So many people out there say things like "rise above it" and "Its only birds", "Only a laugh".

And yes. It is only birds. And should be a laugh. But there are people out there, who exist in all walks of life, who want nothing more than to drag other people down. Wannabe bullies. And they can get away with their behaviour, primarily because there are so few willing to stand up to them.

It wont last forever though. This whole cyber behaviour thing is raising more and more legal issues, and several states in America have already brought about legislation to tackle cyber bullies/stalkers etc., on the back of serious tragedies. Sooner or later it will be brought in here. And moderators will be forced to censure and probably even ban people like Lee, who continuously seek to victimize others.

Owen