yellow legged gull - to list or not to list? (2 Viewers)

[Charles Harper]

Any idea then where we can get a look at this 'Howard and Moore' list, Michael or anyone else? First I've heard of it, I'm ashamed to say...

 

[Michael Frankis]

Hi Harry,

The ones I saw were over 300 miles inland along the Danube in northwest Bulgaria, early autumn, so almost certainly wintering birds arrived from Romania (several of them were actually in Romania, on the far side of the Danube!) - they certainly had the rakish slender heads typical of cachinnans, and weren't as dark grey as UK michahellis. Never went to the coast, guess that explains why we got different birds.

Whether there's any intermediates / hybrids in the area, I wouldn't feel confident to pick out.

Michael

 

[Michael Frankis]

Hi Charles,

The Howard & Moore Complete Checklist of the Birds of the World

Hardback 1039pp., 3rd edition; edited by Edward C Dickinson. 2003.

Publishers: Christopher Helm / A&C Black, London (probably issued simultaneously in the US too, perhaps by Princeton?)

ISBN 0-7136-6536-X

The bad news: GBP 60

Review in British Birds 96: 532-533.

Michael

 

[HH75]

Hi Michael,
That makes sense,especially as Caspian tends to be a freshwater bird,given the choice!
I don't know if there are any convincing reports of intermediate/hybrid mich x cach from Bulgaria:if not,then this would indicate that they behave as good "species"(but what about the relationship between cachinnans,barabensis and heuglini,not to mention whether or not michahellis is sufficiently reproductively isolated from argentatus/argenteus or graellsii?).
Harry H

 

[Charles Harper]

Ah yes-- I have heard of it, but avoided pursuing it, thinking I was already inundated by Clements, and Monroe & Sibley. 60 pounds sterling is 11,000 yen at the moment, pretty steep indeed.

Thank you and sorry for interrupting the cachinnans vs. michahelllis discussion, which I am also avoiding, as I am already totally convinced as to what I can tick here. I have listed cachinnans mongolicus, heuglini taimyrensis, vegae and I don't want to be confused by the facts...

 

[Michael Frankis]

Hi Harry,

Just checked up in BWP Concise - the map doesn't distinguish between mich and cach, but it seems there are 'large white-headed' gulls breeding along the Danube as well as wintering - presumably cachinnans from my obs and your comments about preferred habitat; I'd guess they colonised there from the Don & Volga, ultimately (same habitat, mile-wide rivers!)

Interesting in Bulgaria, mich being a bird of rocky coasts, whereas in western Europe, mich is on the muddy coasts & estuaries, and argenteus on the rocky coasts . . .

Just to widen the mess even further, one of our local gull experts has mentioned that atlantis gulls (NW Spain, Portugal, Atlantic Islands), though similar to mich in plumage & leg colour, are behaviourally more similar to argenteus . . .

Michael

 

[HH75]

Hi Michael,
I would assume that the gulls breeding along the Danube are cachinnans:they breed in the Danube delta in Romania,I think.
Please note that michahellis isn't a bird of rocky coasts per se in Bulgaria:yes,it breeds on cliffs and/or buildings,but spends lots of time on sandy beaches(saw most of them in such habitat).As such,they probably behave more like graellsii does here(indeed,it is now believed that michahellis is closer to LBB than to Herring,and michs here often associate with LBB's).
Interesting re atlantis:I believe that there may have been some intergression between "YL Gull" and argenteus in the area,perhaps in the distant past;"cantabricans"(N.Spain) shows some intermediate features between the two....
Harry H

 

[Fulmar]

Hi Michael,

Well, the Howard and Moore may be two persons
Do they have any more official recognition than Dr. Clements?

The Clements list has the big advantage that you can buy it as a database and keep it up-to-date via the internet. It may be a single person's effort, but then it goes a long way to a world standard list. Having the changes freely available on the internet, with the sources why something was changed, is a big advantage. I have the Howard & Moore book too, but the database possibilities and the regular updates made me change to the Clements list.

Even when you don't want to use the Clements list, the update page makes a fascinating read. For those who haven't seen it, see for yourself at http://www.ibispub.com/updates.html

Regards,
Peter

 

[Michael Frankis]

Hi Peter,

Here's some comments that someone posted on Surfbirdnews:

To my mind there are two serious alternatives, Clements and the new Howard and Moore (reviewed in latest Bristish Birds and Birding World). Which is best for you depends on what you are after. Both are large and list subspecies and their ranges, both use somewhat unfamiliar orders, both are published in UK by A&C Black (Helm/Pica empire). Pros and cons as I see them are:

Clements:
for - updates (& corrections!!) posted approx twice a year on ibispub.com, likely to give one a bigger life list (!), (significantly) cheaper
against - referencing is poor/non-existant (updates are better), seems less authoratative (a one man band with some splits seem a bit hard to accept), layout is less pleasing, a bit dated (but does have updates), very american in its use of names

H&M:
for - very well referenced, very authoratative (involves a team of regional experts), nicer layout (I think), no american bias
against - no internet updates (tho structure in place for future editions), perhaps overly cautious on taxonomy, more expensive, likely to result in a lower (but more justifiable?) life list

Michael

 

[Edward woodwood]

clements is the listers' list
Howard and Moore (and S & M) are perhaps a little more 'serious' but I don't like that word as it gives a bad impression. H & M. lists more subspecies and is probably the most complete and accurate list and is more critical when it comes to assessing validity of subspecies etc. The new H & M. list has also received good reviews....

 

[Fulmar]

About the Clements list I read that "the list in this annually-updated book has been officially adopted by the American Birding Association because it is the most widely used world bird list".

I think the ABA is what the RSPB is in Britain? So I conclude that the Clements list is a bit more than a one man operation?

But it is a pity that all those "authorities" can not come together to make one single list on a global scale. Something like a supranational body with delegates from the BOU, AOU, DBA, etc where the final decisions are made. But as it is always difficult for them to cede something of their authority to others, this will remain an utopia I'm afraid.

Regards,
Peter

 

[RockyRacoon]

Hi, when I go to Tenerife I am going to tick it, because it is a different species isn't it? Or most of my Bird Guides put it as

 

[david kelly]

So I recently added the Rosy-faced Lovebird / Agapornis roseicollis to my PERSONAL list, when I saw two of them happily feeding and flying around on the coast in Dunbar, Scotland. Of course, they were not in my guide, but I made a good drawing and found them back in HBW. Horror to some people, I know, but it is MY list!

Peter,

How recently did you see these birds in Dunbar?

David

 

[very boring banned member]

should we all be listing it?

No. B

 

[Jasonbirder]

But it is a pity that all those "authorities" can not come together to make one single list on a global scale. Something like a supranational body with delegates from the BOU, AOU, DBA, etc where the final decisions are made

There is a pan-european commitee - the AERC (Association of Records and Rarities Commitees) which has a sub-commitee looking at Taxonomic issues to try and get some sort of "standards" for European Records, which consists of representatives from the British, French, German, Dutch & Swedish records bodies.

However it does appear that the BOU want to "pend" every single decision rather than accept/reject - just take a look at their voting on everything compared to the other European countries!

For what its worth the reccomendations of All the other European members (except Britain) was a split along the lines of American Herring/Herring/Yellow-legged/Caspian/Armenian for the Herring Gull complex - i`m not qualified to comment myself - its a tricky issue but if everyone but the (notoriously slothful) BOU reckons thats the way to go - who am I to argue!!!

Hurry up and deliver me 3 new armchair ticks thats what i say!

 

[cuckooroller]

I must say that since the new Howard & Moore was published the obvious care and reviewing that has gone into this treatment is rapidly gaining favor (not with the at all cost listers though).

This is how some of the Gulls in question have been treated by them:

Larus argentatus HERRING GULL

L.a.smithsonianus -- North America >> south to C America
L.a.argenteus -- Iceland, Faroe Is., W Europe >> south to N Iberia
L.a.argentatus (omissus submerged here) -- Denmark to E Kola Pen. >> N and W Europe
L.a.vegae -- NE Siberia >> south to China


Larus cachinnans YELLOW-LEGGED GULL

L.c.atlantis -- Azores, Madeira, Canary Is.
L.c.michahellis -- W and S Europe, NW Africa, Mediterranean
L.c.cachinnans (ponticus herein submerged) -- Black Sea to C Kazakhstan and Caspian Sea >> south to Middle East and SW Asia
L.c.barabensis -- C Asia >> SW Asia
L.c.mongolicus -- SE Altai (incl. E Kazakhstan) and Lake Baikal to Mongolia >> S Asia


Larus armenicus ARMENIAN GULL

Monotypic -- E Turkey and NW Iran to Caucasus >> N Red Sea, E Mediterranean and SE Black Sea

 

[Fulmar]

So I recently added the Rosy-faced Lovebird / Agapornis roseicollis to my PERSONAL list, when I saw two of them happily feeding and flying around on the coast in Dunbar, Scotland. Of course, they were not in my guide, but I made a good drawing and found them back in HBW. Horror to some people, I know, but it is MY list!

Peter,

How recently did you see these birds in Dunbar?

David,

I saw them on 15 June 2003. But you're not going to tell me that two of your Lovebirds escaped that day? :eek!:

Peter

 

[Bluetail]

I'm with CJW on this; I only tick species on the British List. However, all the other birders I know tick it.

 

[david kelly]

David,

I saw them on 15 June 2003. But you're not going to tell me that two of your Lovebirds escaped that day? :eek!:

Peter

No,

I know that these Lovebirds have been around for two or three years now. We even suspect that they have bred in the wild as young birds have been seen too.

David