I installed a bird feeder in the garden. Surprisingly, I took good pictures with an almost 20-year-old camera, the Panasonic FZ50. A Great Tit and a Sparrow (am I correct?) are my pictures so far. They are cute little creatures, ravenous and very shy. I read they should be nesting now, if I am correct.... I used the Merlin app. This latter one is a beautiful innovation that opened up a new world for me.
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Hello, new to birdwatching in the garden (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter codirosso
- Start date
Alexander Stöhr
Well-known member
Hello Codirosso,
welcome to Birdforum!
Yes, the left bird is a Great Tit.
Your right picture is a bit more diffcult, at least for me.
The left bird is no Tree Sparrow. Please note
The right bird is such an Italien Sparrow: The following features are good against House Sparrow
More about Italien Sparrow
www.vogelwarte.ch
www.vogelwarte.ch
Welcome to Birdforum again!
welcome to Birdforum!
Yes, the left bird is a Great Tit.
Your right picture is a bit more diffcult, at least for me.
The left bird is no Tree Sparrow. Please note
- Bold white bar on the median coverts and a buffier stripe on the greater coverts. More two similar stripes in a Tree Sparrow
- Many Tree Sparrows have a deeper rufous brown back, the buffish tinge is better for a House Sparrow
The right bird is such an Italien Sparrow: The following features are good against House Sparrow
- Brownish crown, nearly lacking grey (grey should be visible in the left bird too, if this is a pure House Sparrow. So the legt bird is either an Italien Sparrow, an intermediäre bird or a rare House Sparrow with reduced grey in the crown)
- deeper brown colour of the cap, but its so variable in House Sparrow. I have seen similar House Sparow in N and NE Germany.
- Whiter cheeks, contrasting with the greyer belly
More about Italien Sparrow
Vogelarten: Italiensperling
Der Italiensperling ist dem Haussperling in vielerlei Hinsicht ähnlich und wurde früher als dessen Unterart betrachtet. In der Schweiz beschränkt sich sein Vorkommen auf das Tessin und die Südtäler Graubündens. Lokal ist er auch im Wallis anzutreffen. Im Alpenbogen, wo die Arealgrenzen von Haus-...
www.vogelwarte.ch
Genau hingeschaut: Krähen, Sperlinge und Hybriden | Schweizerische Vogelwarte
Die Alpen stellen für mehrere Arten eine natürliche Grenze ihrer Verbreitungsgebiete dar. In der Schweiz kommt es entlang dieser Grenze im Überlappungsgebiet von Raben- und Nebelkrähe sowie von Haus- und Italiensperling zu einer breiten Mischzone. Diese scheint sich mindestens seit 1993–1996...
Welcome to Birdforum again!
Hi codirosso and a warm welcome to you from all the Staff and Moderators. Alexander has given you some excellent information about the Italian Sparrow v House Sparrow and hybrids etc . I think I'll move your post to the ID Forum in case they have anything extra they can add.
You can read more about this complex in our Opus articles: Italian Sparrow - BirdForum Opus
I'm sure you will enjoy it here and I look forward to hearing your news.
You can read more about this complex in our Opus articles: Italian Sparrow - BirdForum Opus
I'm sure you will enjoy it here and I look forward to hearing your news.
Thank you, Alexander. It's impressive that so much investigation is involved. In short, I checked the websites and a book I found, and yes, I was glad to slowly follow through with your reasoning and other's reasoning, too. So, this is an Italian Sparrow ("passera d'Italia", in the book). There are different (at least five ?) types of sparrows apparently: Passera oltremontana (ultramontane Sparrow?), Italian Sparrow, Spanish Sparrow, Tree Sparrow, and Rock Sparrow, which in turn are grouped into four types (or species): Passer domesticus, Passer hispaniolensis, Passer Montanus, Petronia petronia. The book is by Francesco Mezzatesta with illustrations by Lorenzo Dotti; Mondadori Edition (1990)Hello Codirosso,
welcome to Birdforum!
Yes, the left bird is a Great Tit.
Your right picture is a bit more diffcult, at least for me.
The left bird is no Tree Sparrow. Please note
But is it really a House Sparrow? There is a similar form, the Italien Sparrow. Its cloesely related to this species and hybride/intermediate birds occur in the Suisse.
- Bold white bar on the median coverts and a buffier stripe on the greater coverts. More two similar stripes in a Tree Sparrow
- Many Tree Sparrows have a deeper rufous brown back, the buffish tinge is better for a House Sparrow
The right bird is such an Italien Sparrow: The following features are good against House Sparrow
What an interesting observation. You may well report it here. If you dont knnow this site, it might well be interesting to dig deeper and report your observations here Le Moineau domestique au sud de Bellinzone
- Brownish crown, nearly lacking grey (grey should be visible in the left bird too, if this is a pure House Sparrow. So the legt bird is either an Italien Sparrow, an intermediäre bird or a rare House Sparrow with reduced grey in the crown)
- deeper brown colour of the cap, but its so variable in House Sparrow. I have seen similar House Sparow in N and NE Germany.
- Whiter cheeks, contrasting with the greyer belly
More about Italien Sparrow
Vogelarten: Italiensperling
Der Italiensperling ist dem Haussperling in vielerlei Hinsicht ähnlich und wurde früher als dessen Unterart betrachtet. In der Schweiz beschränkt sich sein Vorkommen auf das Tessin und die Südtäler Graubündens. Lokal ist er auch im Wallis anzutreffen. Im Alpenbogen, wo die Arealgrenzen von Haus-...Genau hingeschaut: Krähen, Sperlinge und Hybriden | Schweizerische Vogelwarte
Die Alpen stellen für mehrere Arten eine natürliche Grenze ihrer Verbreitungsgebiete dar. In der Schweiz kommt es entlang dieser Grenze im Überlappungsgebiet von Raben- und Nebelkrähe sowie von Haus- und Italiensperling zu einer breiten Mischzone. Diese scheint sich mindestens seit 1993–1996...
Welcome to Birdforum again!
Attachments
Yes, more than five if you include birds from outside Europe.
Your book classifies Italian Sparrow as a subspecies of Passer domesticus, whereas in other places (including the Opus entry that Delia linked above) it would be regarded as a full species Passer italiae. What your book calls Passera oltremontana is usually referred to as the House Sparrow Passer domesticus.
Southern Viking
Well-known member
Let's be honest, it's one of those cases in speciation where it could be considered either depending on where the line is drawn. No doubt hybrid beginnings are no great rarity in the history of evolution. Italian Sparrow seems to be a case in which they seem stable in some areas but less so in others.
True enough, but I was really addressing the tangle of naming brought up by the OP's book and what the heck an Ultramontane Sparrow is, rather than expressing an opinion on which interpretation is correct. Which I'm not qualified to do. Though at least in this case we're looking at forms which are distinguishable in the field by us mortals, at least to an extent.
