Ruddy Duck Cull (1 Viewer)

[Nightranger]

a) there is no conclusive eidence that it is British Ruddy Ducks cross-breeding with the Spanish population, and b) Ruddy Ducks are an attractive and welcome addition to the British countryside - they enhance it. As do Little Owls, Red-legged Partridges and many other "alien" species.

a. Alan, there is evidence that ruddy duck are hybridising with WHD and that they are UK birds. There has been a genetic study on continental ruddy ducks that proves they come from UK stocks not that this matters as it is a diversion from the real matter in hand - that of an introduced alien causing problems. Think mink! Think grey squirrels!

b. I am sorry guys but aesthetics just does not cut it as a valid argument. How would you feel if little owls had displaced barn owls? OK I accept that some introductions are benign but think about why this should be. Little owls were once a British bird anyway as we know from fossil evidence and all that has happened is that they have reclaimed the niche with the help of humans. Even then, it took a few attempts before they got established. Red-legged partridges come from the near continent were the ecosystem is not significantly different from the UK. Ruddy ducks come from western USA, they are not genuine vagrants (unlike Canada geese albeit not the race that was introduced).

 

[Nightranger]

Since Ruddy Ducks are proven Transatlantic vagrants, what's to stop a randy Yank or fifty dropping down in Spain after the cull? The whole thing smells of 'euro-politic' to me! Shall we cull all Mallards in case they further dilute the US Black Duck gene pool?

Apologies to Jason because I had not realised this thread had been raised when I PM-ed him. If anyone doubts that hybridisation is a threat, then check out pied-billed grebe v Atitlan grebe. That situation would have been funny were it not so serious.

David (with respect), I think you need to double check your sources, as far as I am aware there are no genuine records of vagrant ruddy ducks in Europe. If you look at the distribution (see map) this should come as no surprise. I would be interested on the views of our American friends on the black duck question although given that mallards DO reach North America as genuine vagrants, it has a slightly different element.

 

[Mike Pennington]

I would be interested on the views of our American friends on the black duck question although given that mallards DO reach North America as genuine vagrants, it has a slightly different element.

The Mallard/Black Duck question is a completely different one as Mallard is a native American duck (not a vagrant or introduction) and hybridisation is because of the breakdown in ecological separation due to habitat changes made by man.

Similarly, ecological barriers being broken down has lead to hybridistaion by other closely allied species whcih formerly never came into close contact as their habitats were so different e.g. Pine Bunting and Yellowhammer in Siberia or, worryingly, White-cheeked Turaco and Ruspoli's Turcao, as reported in the latest ABC Bulletin.

Man's fault again, but a different reason.

PS Totally agree with the main point - the vagrant Ruddy Duck suggestion seems to be completely unfounded.

 

[Jane Turner]

I really have trouble seeing this in black and white.

I would support a cull for sure if I though it would be effective and not cause other problems. The one thing that is certain is that the White-headed Duck in Spain MUST be protected.

I'd like to see a cast iron captive breeding programme for WHD.. to ensure that the species is secure and a complete erradication programme in a buffer zone.

If there was a button I could press that would remove RD as a European breeder I would push it.....

 

[DJ Sideboard]

I'm not convinced by some of the 'science' being laid down here.

Is there any evidence that Ruddys and White-heads couldn't co-exist if Ruddy levels in Spain were allowed to increase to a level where they could easily find mates of their own species?. I believe that it is normal for pioneers of a species to interbreed with near relatives in the initial colonisation period before there is a reasonable population of their own species.

 

[Nightranger]

The Mallard/Black Duck question is a completely different one as Mallard is a native American duck (not a vagrant or introduction) and hybridisation is because of the breakdown in ecological separation due to habitat changes made by man.

Hi Mike,

Yeah I agree the point was not raised in my post and I think the pied-billed grebe/Atitlan grebe is a better comparison.

 

[Nightranger]

I'm not convinced by some of the 'science' being laid down here.

Is there any evidence that Ruddys and White-heads couldn't co-exist if Ruddy levels in Spain were allowed to increase to a level where they could easily find mates of their own species?. I believe that it is normal for pioneers of a species to interbreed with near relatives in the initial colonisation period before there is a reasonable population of their own species.

Yes, but we have not got a lot of time to play with in the meantime. I think it is important to realise that the ruddy cull is not the sole conservation method being tried. Indeed, it would be unlikely to work without active work being carried out to save WHDs. There are a couple of points to bear in mind when we look at this question.

1. The Spanish equivalent of the RSPB (SEO) has nothing like the size of the RSPB either in resources or in mebership. They also operate against a background that is (perhaps) less appreciating of conservation concerns (Spain is sadly, far from unique in this respect). So do we ignore all the wonderful efforts SEO is trying to make? SEO will win the education battle eventually but would it not be awful if they had lost an important breeding bird in that time?

2. WHDs exist in other populations but all are scattered and show all the horrendous signs of being relicts. Unfortunately, the other populations are all either too small (in that even a relatively minor ecological disaster could wipe them out) or they are located in politically unstable regions. Indeed, the population in southern Iraq may already be extinct (along with the smooth-coated otter subspecies Lutrogale perspicillata maxwelli) for example.

 

[RobinD]

The breeding distribution map for the Ruddy Duck showing distribution restricted to west of the great plains is misleading. Ruddy ducks have been recorded breeding in most of the Eastern United States, albeit sporadically. In common with other "western" ducks these breeding records are increasing. Witness the records of both Redhead and Canvasback in Britain in recent years. Vagrancy and 'natural colonisation' are real possibilities.

 

[godwit]

"Vagrancy and 'natural colonisation' are real possibilities."

Vagrancy, yes, 'natural colonisation' much, much less so as evidenced by the failure of far commoner species on the Eastern seaboard that are known regular transatlantic vagrants to colonise Europe, i.e Ring-necked Duck.

Dave

 

[pduxon]

Am I right in thinking that there are still captive groups of Ruddies still kept by the WWT?

Surely the WWT and other conservation bodies should only be keeping and breeding birds essential for the survival of the species. Walk around Slimbridge and you find many common birds from South America etc. What will be the next escapee ?

A bit like Jane if I could push a button ...........

 

[DJ Sideboard]

Maybe some vigourous Ruddy Duck genes are just what the White-headed Duck needs to survive?. After all it would be better to have a mongrel Mediterranean Stifftail then none at all. Sometimes I think these issues revolve around preserving 'species' to tick off.....

 

[pduxon]

I do find it a bit bizarre that if a group of 50 Ruddies were blown over by a hurricane or somesuch (ok unlikely) and started breeding with the WHD that that would be ok but as they fly from the UK it isn't

 

[Edward woodwood]

it wouldn't be ok Pete!

and it will never happen

reverse the situation and imagine a British bird that you like is going extinct....say Avocets from predation by gulls at Minsmere....I'm pretty sure a cull there would have some support. Well, WHDucks are fantastic birds too and this could happen not here but in Turkey and Spain. The science is there and i wish people would stop labelling it bad - all the factual errors and assumptions in the thread have come from the Anti-cull folks - trotting out stuff based on er....nothing, as if it were fact - eg vagrants from USA. Hybridisation with Ruddies has been happening for a long time in Spain already - see the graph i posted earlier (this is also a FACT) Opinion is opinion....the facts are pro cull....which is why after 10 years it is still going ahead.

 

[Alan Hobson]

"and after all science deals in proofs"

No it doesn't, it deals in hypotheses.

Dave

So you're prepared to ruthlessly cull Ruddy Ducks based on a hypothesis? Trouble with hypotheses is, a lot of them turn out to be wrong.

 

[Edward woodwood]

Yes, of course

there's a lot more evidence for the cull than there is for transatlantic vagrancy - hasn't stopped people saying it happens though despite NO evidence at all for it! That's called making stuff up!

 

[Keith Reeder]

Accepting the science, exactly what is the plan of campaign for this cull?

It might be common knowledge to "old hands" in this matter, and I apologise in advance if this is more "old ground" - but when and where will the shooting take place, who will be doing it, and how will success be quantified?

 

[Edward woodwood]

and as for ducks being disturbed by shooting - half of the North Norfolk coast, including the west of the path at Titchwell and the west of the path at Cley is Wildfowlers' Lands.....no one ever noticed that? Always seems to be plenty of ducks up there.

 

[Edward woodwood]

Sometimes I think these issues revolve around preserving 'species' to tick off.....

Hey DJ, I dont think it would be possible to be further away from the real reason....

I dont think tickers (on the whole) are that interested.

atb
Tim

 

[godwit]

"So you're prepared to ruthlessly cull Ruddy Ducks based on a hypothesis? Trouble with hypotheses is, a lot of them turn out to be wrong."

Better to have a wrong hypothesis (that can be tested to see if it's wrong) than to labour under the misapprehension that you have 'proof' when you don't.

Dave

 

[Padraig]

Am I right in thinking that there are still captive groups of Ruddies still kept by the WWT?


Being relatively new to this whole argument/debacle, I have missed out on much of the history since the blessed things first escaped from Slimbridge.
I know the RSPB are (controversially) to the ront in trying to cull the RD population.
What has been the WWT's contribution or philosophy- can anyone please tell me?

I contribute financially to both the RSPB and the WWT but would have more concerns that the WWT are being inactive in this area than that the RSPB are being misguided (that's just my current prejudice on the situation, by the way- it may alter with time but not, I expect, radically).

If I thought the WWT were ignoring the problem while potentially storing up another disater as Pete suggest , then I would have to consider no longer sponsering them. Which is a pity because they do great work world-wide( as do the RSPB.).

The problem is that conservationists are condemned to act. How best to act is the only debate, as far as I can see.

A good debate worth having here.

Regards,

Padraig.