Ruddy Duck Cull (1 Viewer)

[Edward woodwood]

This is going nowhere

I would venture as much to say that anti cull folk do not understand the issues and science in enough depth - hence several of the dodgy/unfounded comments earlier

the birds are DEFINITELY not American - from DNA evidence. This also points very strongly to UK birds being a large part of the problem. They HAVE hybridised already since a long time ago. Left unchecked this could expand rapidly and affect the Asian population too. This cannot be chanced.

The only reason you can be against is becuase you like Ruddies or are against killing birds per se. There is NO reasonable scientific evidence against a cull

yes, it sounds arrogant but i am sick of trying to convince BIRDERS, never mind lay people that a cull is necessary. This is pro bird conservation, pro biodiversity and plain common sense.

 

[marek_walford]

yes, it sounds arrogant but i am sick of trying to convince BIRDERS, never mind lay people that a cull is necessary. This is pro bird conservation, pro biodiversity and plain common sense.

All the debate has been about whether Ruddy Ducks should be culled with very little said about whether eradicating the British Ruddy Duck population is really viable. There are a number of reasons to suggest a cull won't work. I strongly believe the money would be far, far better spent on conserving the species in Spain (habitat management etc.).

 

[Jasonbirder]

The only reason you can be against(a cull) is becuase you ....are against killing birds per se

Awful to be accused of such a thing I feel ashamed of myself

yes, it sounds arrogant but i am sick of trying to convince BIRDERS, never mind lay people that a cull is necessary. This is pro bird conservation, pro biodiversity and plain common sense

Yes, it sounds arrogant but i am sick of trying to convince BIRDERS, never mind lay people that a cull is not necessary.

 

[Edward woodwood]

Hi Marek, that's not the problem though!

your last comment is pretty lame Jase and i guess not entirely serious

I'm off for a kickabout.....catch yous later - enjoy! B

 

[godwit]

"There are a number of reasons to suggest a cull won't work"

What are they?

"I strongly believe the money would be far, far better spent on conserving the species in Spain (habitat management etc.)."

Wouldn't that be futile if the problem posed by Ruddy Ducks wasn't adressed?

Dave

 

[Nightranger]

I really don't follow this argument at all, Godwit. If the hypothesis turns out to be wrong but in the meantime most of the Ruddies have been blasted to oblivion, it is far too late for them.

And as far as having "proof", it is me who is stressing there is no proof of UK Ruddies interbreeding. So your point about the absence of proof doesn't refute my point in the slightest.

Alan,

I am not sure whether the first part of your post is a welfare comment about the ethics of culling. Ruddy ducks are not endangered over their natural range so this is not species elimination programme.

Part two is even more mystifying because even Jason who is raising some very good points is not saying there is no hybridisation.

 

[Edward woodwood]

...and why will a cull not work then?

perplexed!

 

[jurek]

Lets break it down - firstly is the cull justified?

I don`t want to get drawn into an argument over the origins of Ruddy Ducks on the Continent - its a red herring and gives the pro-cull people an easy excuse to point to bad science, the truth is that very limited numbers of Ruddy Ducks have been shot in Spain - its not such a massive issue as has been made out by many people! Apart from a single year when unusual numbers of Ruddy Ducks where forced south because of unusually cold weather there has never been a year when more than 15 Ruddy Ducks have been controlled on the White-headed Ducks breeding grounds in Spain...

That right - we`re proposing shooting thousands of UK Ruddy Ducks because of the occurance of about a dozen or so in Spain....The Phrase sledgehammer to crack a nut springs to mind!

Numbers of Ruddy Duck-White-headed Duck hybrids recorded have actually dropped since proper surveying of the problem began - thats right numbers of hybrids have decreased, not increased.

They decreased only because Spanish conservationists started controlling Ruddy Ducks and still do!

People in favour of the cull point to the Ruddies captive origins as to the reason for it interbreeding happily with White-headed Ducks, another Red Herring! The Ruddies dispersing to Spain and mainland Europe are generations and generations removed from birds that were kept in captivity - breeding across species barriers is a common behaviour of all wildfowl when there is a limited number of potential partners

Hybrids Ruddy x White-headed are fertile and this is unlike most wildfowl hybrids.

- just look at the Hybrid Black Ducks/Mallards in the south west for an example...If Ruddies become established they would no longer go "hunting down" White-headed Ducks as potential mates...

Again a claim against science. In Spain, some of hybrids shot in Spain were second and third-generation hybrid. They did not stop interbreeding.

In all bird populations limited gene-flow between closely related species occurs - how many closely related species have intergrade zones? It is completely senseless for us to make an arbitary decision to preserve the current White-headed Ducks genetic purity when that is a completely unnatural situation...Look at Hoodie - Carrion Crow hybrids, Yellowhammer - Pine Bunting hybrids Chiffchaff - Iberian Chiffchaff integrades etc etc etc

Again, no scientific proofs that Ruddy and White-headed Ducks will stabilise as two different species.

White-headed Ducks aren`t yet fully protected in Spain, nor is their habitat - the Spanish conservation movement is far smaller, poorer and less influential than that in the UK. Shooting still occurs at many sites (which are also inhabited by the similarly threatened Marbled Teal & Crested Coot) surely the £5million estimated cost of the cull would be better invested in protection and preservation of White-headed Ducks in Spain?

You are just as free to devote your time and effort to the protection in Spain instead to Ruddy Ducks. Birdlife actually helped to protect Spanish wildlife, unlike some organizations which were protesting.

As to the problems the cull would cause....

What credibility will the RSPB have when it calls for protection of other Bird Species - when it has been one of the most vociferous proponents of the Ruddy Duck cull - the Cormorant Cull here is a good example!

That credibility, that they try to conserve all species, even if not all escaped populations.

It is impossible to cull thousands of Ruddy Ducks on some of most important wetland locations without causing death and disturbance amongst internationally important populations of wintering Wildfowl.

Trial plan exactly documented how many other birds were accidentally shot together with Ruddy Ducks. I don't remember exact numbers, but they were close to 2000 Ruddy Ducks shot and 3 other birds shot incidentally.

It was just as detaily documented how other wildfowl behavewd - they moved to other part of a water body and/or returned soon. Look into a DEFRA report for details.

I know the issue has been belittled already but just think subjectively how you`d feel if you pitch up in the hides at Rutland Water to be greeted with someone blasting away at rapidly disapearing flocks of Duck as you set your tripod up

I see smiley. Nobody seriously believes that the cull will take place at peak visitor hours.

Similarly even during the trial cull there were instances of mistaken identity if you`re a half decent birder it often takes a second glance on a windy reservoir to distinguish a winter plumaged Ruddy, a winter plumaged Black-necked Grebe or a redhead Smew doesn`t it? What chance does a non-birding hunter stand? There are typically less tha a dozen inland Long-tailed Ducks recorded a year...they even managed to kill one of those! during the trial cull...

Again, look into the DEFRA report - there were literally few other individual birds shot per thousand of Ruddy Ducks. Even a hunter can learn one species of ducks.

A partial cull would be completely ineffective at reducing Ruddy Duck numbers - the birds would quickly "learn" the safe sites and relocate to those, the trial cull only managed to obtain access to approximately 50% of requested sites, there is no evidence that would be any different in future...

Nope. During a shooting trial, Ruddy Ducks were less wary than other ducks and were shot quite easily. The conclusion was that shooting all population WAS possible.

Yes to a certain extent the appeal of the Ruddy Duck is its charisma and character But whats wrong with that? After all it is the beauty, elegance, charisma and endless fascination that drew as all to them in the first place - otherwise we might all be trainspotters or have taken up collecting Mosses & Lichens

I like the docile White-headed Duck with it's stoic habits and funny big nose. Don't like the idea of a gang of oversexed foreigners escaped from behind the bars raping he's wife. .

 

[mountain man]

What is the population estimate of Ruddies in Britain and Europe?

 

[Jasonbirder]

A cull won`t work - because access will never be granted to a large proportion of the waters where it is requested

 

[godwit]

"A cull won`t work - because access will never be granted to a large proportion of the waters where it is requested"

Evidence please.

Dave

 

[Nightranger]

So you genuinely think that your debating position opposing the cull of one common bird species is not in anyway eroded by the fact that you have endorsed the cull of another breeding species?

Quite right, the RSPB should withdraw its opposition to the cormorant quotas forthwith. Seriously though, the problem is that the arguments can be used against the RSPB from either direction. I mentioned this yesterday but you can see a point in time when WHDs are extinct in Spain and everyone is asking why the RSPB ignored the evidence. The Atitlan grebe is a great example of what can go wrong if the warnings are ignored for too long. Reality has to bite at this point with the realisation that the RSPB if often caught between a rock and hard place on these decisions. Believe me, there are plenty of people out there that claim the RSPB doesn't do enough on international issues. To be honest Jason, I would hate to be the one making the decisions.

 

[jurek]

Bad news for White-headed and Ruddy Ducks. More would have to be killed, because immigrants from these areas would appear. I thought, the idea was to minimize bird suffering, not provide a constant supply of Ruddy Ducks to be shot in Britain and the Continent?

 

[Jasonbirder]

The Control Trial has shown that access for the purpose of controlling ruddy ducks by shooting can be negotiated on a voluntary basis for around 50% of ruddy duck sites. There are likely to be in the region of 1,000 breeding sites nationally, but the birds concentrate in large numbers on a limited number of sites during the post-breeding and winter periods. Access to these concentrations (approximately 40 sites in total) would be crucial to the acceptable progress of a national programme. It is unlikely that voluntary access will be granted for all such sites.....

From the DEFRA report...

 

[godwit]

"access will never be granted to a large proportion of the waters"

I can't find any reference to the proportion of the waters to which access will be voluntarily allowed in the Defra report quoted.

I think the word 'voluntary' is rather important here, I believe that as a government body DEFRA have the power, if needed, to insist on access. More likely though is that they will target birds when they are away from the unknown number of sites (if any) to which voluntary access is denied.

Dave

 

[Jasonbirder]

Indeed they do - but how likely is that? Particularly when the access is being refused by large water companies and international aggregate companies - not Jo Bloggs who has a farm pond at the end of his meadow?

 

[godwit]

Sorry Jason, I was editing while you were responding. I don't think it changes anything significantly though.

"access is being refused by large water companies and international aggregate companies"

Evidence please.

Dave

 

[Nightranger]

Indeed they do - but how likely is that? Particularly when the access is being refused by large water companies and international aggregate companies - not Jo Bloggs who has a farm pond at the end of his meadow?

Hmm, this could be interesting if the same waters apply to shoot cormorants. Anyway, the weekend is nearly upon us so I am going to duck (pun intended) out of the debate for now but I will carry on reading the thread. It has been yet another good BF debate and I really enjoy this kind iof debate when everything stays civil (yes, it can be done). Personnaly, I learn a lot from this kind of thing and that is completely lacking if a debate descends into a slanging match (are you watching BBC?). Thanks for everyone's comments and once again, well done for some well measured debating.

 

[godwit]

These pics of Spanish W-h D just added to The Gallery in case anyone has forgotten what the fuss is all about!

http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showphoto.php/photo/33132

http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showphoto.php/photo/33130

Dave

 

[Alan Hobson]

Alan,

I am not sure whether the first part of your post is a welfare comment about the ethics of culling. Ruddy ducks are not endangered over their natural range so this is not species elimination programme.

Part two is even more mystifying because even Jason who is raising some very good points is not saying there is no hybridisation.

Ian,

It is your post which is mystifying - you seem to have got hold of the wrong end of several sticks.

I was answering Godwit's points, for one thing, so that was the purpose of that particular post, rather then some strange welfare comment as you suggest.

Secondly, I was clearly - in the context of my posts and the thread - meaning UK Ruddy Ducks, not the world population, so you're just being pedantic. Once it is seen I mean UK, then of course the point stands - the whole point of the cull is to blast the UK Ruddies into oblivion.

Thirdly, my point about UK Ruddies not proven to be in Spain stands. I did a long post about that back earlier in the thread [post 21], and even used a quote from Tim's much-vaunted academic paper he keeps mentioning. Did you actually read my post properly? Cos no-one replying to it did show any firm proof - so my point about no proof stands.