• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Ruddy Duck Cull (1 Viewer)

Status
Not open for further replies.
and as for ducks being disturbed by shooting - half of the North Norfolk coast, including the west of the path at Titchwell and the west of the path at Cley is Wildfowlers' Lands.....no one ever noticed that? Always seems to be plenty of ducks up there.
BTW, wildfowl can stand considerable disturbance. Many (most?) internationally important wildfowl sites are hunted

Never thought i`d see a thread where the so-called conservationists were arguing about the lack of impact and limited disturbance caused by shooting...
Surely none of the same people who have bemoaned the disturbance caused by birders lack of field skills ;)
 
"Never thought i`d see a thread where the so-called conservationists were arguing about the lack of impact and limited disturbance caused by shooting...
Surely none of the same people who have bemoaned the disturbance caused by birders lack of field skills"

Oh, Jason, is that the best you can do!

It's a balancing act as you well know. Shooters are responsible for the maintanence and protection of some vital habitats, this can't be said for those members of the anti-Ruddy Duck cull brigade who refuse to join the RSPB of course :)

Dave
 
For invasive species like the Ruddy Duck solid scientific evidence for negative impacts upon white-headed Duck should not be neccessary before a cull happens. Surely the precautionary principle should be followed - kill them before they have the chance to do anything negative irrespective of evidence. Whilst I acknowledge this stage is well past for Ruddies culling introduced species should be standard before they are established. I have argueing with the management of a nature reserve in provence, which is one of the French strongholds for European Terrapin, that they should start a cull of any Florida Terrapins they catch. However they refuse because there is no evidence for hybridisation/interspecific competition between the two species. It is attitudes like this that have allowed introduced species to become one of the major conservation problems worldwide
 
I've got to agree with DJ Sideboard. Humans playing duck eugenics does seem ill starred - the ducks obviously find each other attractive and you all know how hard it is to keep those kids apart...
 
Tim Allwood said:
say Avocets from predation by gulls at Minsmere....I'm pretty sure a cull there would have some support.

Where are the complaints about Great Black Backed Gulls being 'removed' from Puffin colonies?
 
GavinM said:
I've got to agree with DJ Sideboard. Humans playing duck eugenics does seem ill starred - the ducks obviously find each other attractive and you all know how hard it is to keep those kids apart...

Hi Gavin,

The problem is that 'European' ruddy ducks have captive origins and they do not recognise what is to be a ruddy duck. We see similar things in Aythya ducks but populations are high enough for a few hybrids to be trivial (not that you can distinguish between a wild scaup and one that has escaped anyway without DNA tests). In addition, I am not sure if Aythya hybrids are fertile anyway.
 
Ian Peters said:
Hi Gavin,

The problem is that 'European' ruddy ducks have captive origins and they do not recognise what is to be a ruddy duck. We see similar things in Aythya ducks but populations are high enough for a few hybrids to be trivial (not that you can distinguish between a wild scaup and one that has escaped anyway without DNA tests). In addition, I am not sure if Aythya hybrids are fertile anyway.

why were they captive? Was there some compelling conservation reason for them to be here?
 
"why were they captive? Was there some compelling conservation reason for them to be here?"

No, they were at Slimbridge as eye candy.

Dave
 
Tim Allwood said:
reverse the situation and imagine a British bird that you like is going extinct....say Avocets from predation by gulls at Minsmere....I'm pretty sure a cull there would have some support.

I'm all for an Avocet cull. The number of rare waders I've failed to see on account of them being chased of by breeding Avocets.....
 
DJ Sideboard said:
I'm all for an Avocet cull. The number of rare waders I've failed to see on account of them being chased of by breeding Avocets.....
Ah, an "extra tick" argument... ;)
 
Ian Peters said:
The problem is that 'European' ruddy ducks have captive origins and they do not recognise what is to be a ruddy duck.

Thats not true. Prospecting Ruddy males arrive in new areas and mount the nearest female Stifftail. Its nothing to do with their captive origins.
 
jurek said:
If you try to delay the cull, you will only increase disturbance for the birds. If you don't care about Britain, remember about Spain. Ruddy Ducks will be shot there. If you let them breed in Britain, you cause disturbance in Spain.

I notice liltle has been said about the way ruddy ducks cross breed with native mallards.
I have seen several examples of cross bred ruddy/ mallard on the Lagan and Bann rivers in NI and was alarmed to see a half bred drake in possession of a mallard duck and defending her successfully against two mallard drakes. They seem to be very agressive breeders. I understand that these cross bred ducks are infertile but they are the ugliest ducks I've ever seen and I wouldn't be sorry to see them and the ruddies which produce them culled.
As they are in Northern Ireland It's a safe bet that they are also in the Republic of Ireland so restricting the cull to Uk will not solve the Spanish problem.

Ronnie
 
Lets break it down - firstly is the cull justified?

I don`t want to get drawn into an argument over the origins of Ruddy Ducks on the Continent - its a red herring and gives the pro-cull people an easy excuse to point to bad science, the truth is that very limited numbers of Ruddy Ducks have been shot in Spain - its not such a massive issue as has been made out by many people! Apart from a single year when unusual numbers of Ruddy Ducks where forced south because of unusually cold weather there has never been a year when more than 15 Ruddy Ducks have been controlled on the White-headed Ducks breeding grounds in Spain...

That right - we`re proposing shooting thousands of UK Ruddy Ducks because of the occurance of about a dozen or so in Spain....The Phrase sledgehammer to crack a nut springs to mind!

Numbers of Ruddy Duck-White-headed Duck hybrids recorded have actually dropped since proper surveying of the problem began - thats right numbers of hybrids have decreased, not increased.

People in favour of the cull point to the Ruddies captive origins as to the reason for it interbreeding happily with White-headed Ducks, another Red Herring! The Ruddies dispersing to Spain and mainland Europe are generations and generations removed from birds that were kept in captivity - breeding across species barriers is a common behaviour of all wildfowl when there is a limited number of potential partners - just look at the Hybrid Black Ducks/Mallards in the south west for an example...If Ruddies become established they would no longer go "hunting down" White-headed Ducks as potential mates...

In all bird populations limited gene-flow between closely related species occurs - how many closely related species have intergrade zones? It is completely senseless for us to make an arbitary decision to preserve the current White-headed Ducks genetic purity when that is a completely unnatural situation...Look at Hoodie - Carrion Crow hybrids, Yellowhammer - Pine Bunting hybrids Chiffchaff - Iberian Chiffchaff integrades etc etc etc

White-headed Ducks aren`t yet fully protected in Spain, nor is their habitat - the Spanish conservation movement is far smaller, poorer and less influential than that in the UK. Shooting still occurs at many sites (which are also inhabited by the similarly threatened Marbled Teal & Crested Coot) surely the £5million estimated cost of the cull would be better invested in protection and preservation of White-headed Ducks in Spain?

As to the problems the cull would cause....

What credibility will the RSPB have when it calls for protection of other Bird Species - when it has been one of the most vociferous proponents of the Ruddy Duck cull - the Cormorant Cull here is a good example!

What image does it portray to the general public or casual bird lover (Robin Stroker ;) ) for the RSPB for condoning and encouraging the shooting of Ducks on nature reserves? There are about 8000 birders in the Uk so thats about 8000 out of 1,000,000 members who`ll have a firm grasp of the situation leaving 920,000 members/donors etc to be disillusioned...

It is impossible to cull thousands of Ruddy Ducks on some of most important wetland locations without causing death and disturbance amongst internationally important populations of wintering Wildfowl. I know the issue has been belittled already but just think subjectively how you`d feel if you pitch up in the hides at Rutland Water to be greeted with someone blasting away at rapidly disapearing flocks of Duck as you set your tripod up ;) Similarly even during the trial cull there were instances of mistaken identity if you`re a half decent birder it often takes a second glance on a windy reservoir to distinguish a winter plumaged Ruddy, a winter plumaged Black-necked Grebe or a redhead Smew doesn`t it? What chance does a non-birding hunter stand? There are typically less tha a dozen inland Long-tailed Ducks recorded a year...they even managed to kill one of those! during the trial cull...

A partial cull would be completely ineffective at reducing Ruddy Duck numbers - the birds would quickly "learn" the safe sites and relocate to those, the trial cull only managed to obtain access to approximately 50% of requested sites, there is no evidence that would be any different in future...

Yes to a certain extent the appeal of the Ruddy Duck is its charisma and character ;) But whats wrong with that? After all it is the beauty, elegance, charisma and endless fascination that drew as all to them in the first place - otherwise we might all be trainspotters or have taken up collecting Mosses & Lichens ;)
 
DJ Sideboard said:
Thats not true. Prospecting Ruddy males arrive in new areas and mount the nearest female Stifftail. Its nothing to do with their captive origins.

Sorry mate, you say it is not true so can I ask you for a little clarification into why you think that is the case. I explained the rationale behind the idea I posted and I think it is a tad disrespectful to reply and simply state that I posted something that is untrue. I am sure you did not intend to be abrupt but it does read a bit that way, you have to admit.
 
Jasonbirder said:
There are about 8000 birders in the Uk so thats about 8000 out of 1,000,000 members who`ll have a firm grasp of the situation leaving 920,000 members/donors etc to be disillusioned

Like I said elsewhere, it's a good job you're not a teacher ;)

I'm confused. :h?: Both the anti-cull and the pro-cull seem to be perfectly correct. You are all absolutely correct. Anyone got a coin?
 
godwit said:
"So you're prepared to ruthlessly cull Ruddy Ducks based on a hypothesis? Trouble with hypotheses is, a lot of them turn out to be wrong."

Better to have a wrong hypothesis (that can be tested to see if it's wrong) than to labour under the misapprehension that you have 'proof' when you don't.

Dave


I really don't follow this argument at all, Godwit. If the hypothesis turns out to be wrong but in the meantime most of the Ruddies have been blasted to oblivion, it is far too late for them.

And as far as having "proof", it is me who is stressing there is no proof of UK Ruddies interbreeding. So your point about the absence of proof doesn't refute my point in the slightest.
 
"I really don't follow this argument at all, Godwit. If the hypothesis turns out to be wrong but in the meantime most of the Ruddies have been blasted to oblivion, it is far too late for them."

So what? nothing of any value would be lost in my opinion, they are a non-native species.

"And as far as having "proof", it is me who is stressing there is no proof of UK Ruddies interbreeding. So your point about the absence of proof doesn't refute my point in the slightest."

It wasn't meant to, though the hypothesis that they are UK birds is very strongly supported by the genetic evidence.

Dave
 
Jasonbirder said:
1. What credibility will the RSPB have when it calls for protection of other Bird Species - when it has been one of the most vociferous proponents of the Ruddy Duck cull - the Cormorant Cull here is a good example!

2. Yes to a certain extent the appeal of the Ruddy Duck is its charisma and character ;) But whats wrong with that? After all it is the beauty, elegance, charisma and endless fascination that drew as all to them in the first place - otherwise we might all be trainspotters or have taken up collecting Mosses & Lichens ;)

1. Sorry Jason I have to take you to task for comment that I have added a number 1 to. You labelled some of the ideas that have been tabled in support of the cull as being red herrings but with complete respect this comment is exactly the same tactic. Cormorants and ruddy ducks are two different issues and Canada geese are yet another. It is not that I am against debating the points on the same thread but if you are going to take a stance of assessing the evidence tabled that counters your arguments as a red herring then you have to be careful how you offer your own points up. I have a great deal of respect for your points of view so please do not take this a rebuke so much as and adjustment. However, have you got a source for the contention that the number of hybrids has decreased?

2. Well at least you are honest enough to admit it. ;) I think that was a brave statement to make but it makes no sense because it is opinion-based. I happen to think grey squirrels are cute but I would not oppose a cull if the Mammal Society or somesuch proposed one.
 
So you genuinely think that your debating position opposing the cull of one common bird species is not in anyway eroded by the fact that you have endorsed the cull of another breeding species?

The likes of you and I understand the differences between the two - but how many others do?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top